talkmagic.co.uk

This is impossible to say. It all depends on what kind of ppl you do the magic for. You would never get alot in kids parties, unless you deal with rich families, that want you to entertain their kids, because they don't have time Seriously, it all depends on your audience. You could get a deal in a restaurant on a weekly basis, that could give you a good deal, but it all depends on the audience, your experience, your entertainment skills and some luck I guess. Let us know how you do.

If it's a GOOD restaurant I can be persuaded to perform for a 2 course meal for 2 and a decent bottle of wine. Doesn't cost much to the restaurant but would perhaps cost £70 to £80 upwards to buy.

Not sure I agree with that as it tends to undermine our market. Either your way under charging and devaluing magic or if your not under charging, then your not good enough to be performing in a restaurant and equally damaging magic in restauraunts.

I disagree with that but there you go.

I'd never try to undermine or try under sell and consider myself more than adequate for restaurants etc. and am gaining regular business through word of mouth, performing most weekends now.

It's up to the performer to set his own value and If for a change, I fancy the odd gig for an hour or so, with a night out as the payment then it's up to me.

I suppose that we'll agree to disagre but I don;t have a problem with that!

Well are you for example paying tax on your earnings?

You see to my way of thinking to charge a meal for two for a performance is ridiculously low unless

A) your rubbish
B) It's a one off with a view to proper paid work later.

All it does is undercut those that do magic for a living, while those that have other jobs can afford to charge next to nothing cos they don't pay tax and have another income.

At the end of the day it's your choice but those are the reasons I disagree with it and then to see it being given as advice within a thread about going semi pro just makes it worse.

There's is a difference between a semi pro and a pro. In fact, I would perhaps label a semi-pro as a performing amateur on this occasion. No disrespect intended but I think that it perhaps fits better for most performers out there as there appears to be a lot who class themselves as semi pro simply becasue they have started to perform in public and earn some money from it.

The label, pro, not only stands as an indicator that someone is performing as a profession, but it also sets a perception of having reached the highest standards.

I'm intrigued to know how many people actually perform magic full time as a profession? How many of these performers would really be interested in a 60 minute slot in a restaurant, assuming that the restaurant could afford their rates? If a restuarant couldn't afford a professional to entertain their customers, should they not be entitled to hire a good amateur?

There are lots of extremely good amateurs perfroming magic and I would suspect that they far out number the pro's, and good luck to them all.

Originally, you said that under charging was devaluing magic and I disagreed. I will agree that it can, but it doesn't always. Just because you may under charge in one person's eye does not mean that you are actually under selling. What about the good value that you bring to magic in general by exposing an audience to magic, that wouldn't necessarily get the opportunity to see a close up performance? Is performing free of charge for charity also underselling or devaluing? Like most things there are different ways of looking at it, neither way can be right nor wrong and at times, you simply have to apply some judgement.

Whether I pay tax on earnings or not (and I do) is immeterial. The point that I was making, perhaps not too well, was that a meal for 2 in a good restuarant, that has a value of around £80 canot be considered as a ridiculously low fee and to be honest, why shouldn't anyone consider such an arrangement if a restaurant was giving you the opportunity to widen your experience, gain some exposure etc. instead of you just sitting at home? I wouldn't perform for a bag of chips and a steak pie - that would be devaluing, not only magic but also myself as a magician!

To assume on two successive posts that someone must be a rubbish magician for occasionally working in a manner that you personally disagree with is in my opinion just as devaluing to magic and bordering on disrespectful, particularly when you are not in a position to make such a judgement through not having seen a person's performance, whether it's me or any other magician. I don't think it's the first time that you've taken such a view either.

If I hadn't read many of your previous posts and recognised similar views to my own on many topics, then I could almost take offence and think that the rubbish magician label was personal. I am aware through reading your posts that you also work, so are speaking from experience. I've never seen you perform but at the same time, I wouldn't draw conclusions about levels of skill where there was a general disagreement on a topic. Whether you mean it or not, for some it will be the preverbial red rag to a bull.

The way that I see it is that different things have different values to different people. It's no good pricing yourself out of the market whatever line of work you are involved with. I could have worded my post differently but why? It's a view to consider which I think is relevant to the topic raised in this thread.

Anyone who is considering becomming a semi-professional, who is wanting to gain experience on the way to becomming a full time professional must consider different ways to work and grow. If it's the difference between sitting at home and practicing, or getting some work that will expose you to the general public and some prospective future clients then it's well worth giving some serious consideration to some good old diversification.

I agree that it's my choice at the end of the day. Despite having a full time professional occupation, I am passionate about my magic and would never intentionally under sell. I'm not into exposure, or spending the money that I do, and the time that I invest in practice simply to then give my magic away for next to nothing. But as I said earlier, there are times when you need to use your powers of judgement. I hope that you see my point, now that I've got all of that off my chest

Now then, how many people sit in a bar all night performing tricks for a few pints of beer and think nothing of it?

I wouldn't perform for a bag of chips and a steak pie - that would be devaluing, not only magic but also myself as a magician!

Then we agree it's just the price we disagree over.

To assume on two successive posts that someone must be a rubbish magician

I didn't assume, I offered it as a one possibility. So for you to understand where I'm coming from, if you heard of a magician performing for a bag of chips, I guess you would think he was either rubbish or under valuing himself?

If you can see that point then understand that paying a good meal for a performance is to me the same as it appears for you paying a bag of chips and pie. Hope that clarifies it a bit.

Guys, guys, guys! Calm down already!

Happy Toad: if you considered asking for £80 instead of a meal for two, would you still consider that devaluing? I don't know anything about pricing, but seems to me £80 an hour (plus tips?) is a perfectly good fee for table hopping.

Then, if you received the £80 in cash and bought a meal at the same restaurant, would that be better?

If you consider £80 / hour not enough for table hopping, then at least I see where the disagreement is coming from.

Kati

Kat...100% totally with you on this one!!!..great post!

Kati, in the first place I'm totally calm and I'm very calmly expressing a disagreement.

Secondly the hour part was only mentioned later, Dat just said he would perform for a meal and rarely will a restaraunt only want an hour, they want someone there right through there busy period.

Thirdly yes I think £80 for an hour in a restaraunt is devaluing, however £80 is not the same as a meal, being paid a meal which costs the restaurant £30 and being paid £80 is not the same thing. What you then choose to spend the money you have been paid is entirely up to you.

I regularily get thrown a meal for free, it's not considered even part of the payment. I also always get free drinks all night again this is not considered part of the payment.

Let me give a bit of background as some don't appear to be able to understand where I'm coming from.

I work quite a few restauraunts every week along with other types of gig, every now and again I speak to a restaurant that isn't interested in magic. The reason is that they had some guy that was doing a bit of magic on the side and it didn't work. When probed further it becomes obvious that the guy shall we say wasn't very good. Sometimes the magic is ok but handling cusomers etc lets them down. This situation does magic no good and we have had to try and overcome this objection, in some cases we have overcome the objection and we have been given a go and surprise surprise it works.

The second situation is where some guy from the magic circle ( so he must be good ) did a bit for us and was happy with a free meal and £10 to cover his costs. They seem to assume this is the going rate for magicians, again it ruins the market.

Finally the professional restaraunt owner knows the deal he is getting, we had one last week and he sat with us paying us our wages and laughing about the guy he has to entertain the children, cos he is so cheap, he must be a complete idiot. Again the guy had another job.

So it does affect the market and not for the good.

I'm the same as Toad - calm and expressing a point to what is a healthy debate.

Maybe it is the price that we disagree on. I do clearly understand your point but don't necessarily agree that this works all of the time. Such is life. If you follow your bag of chips and a decent meal argument through then there's little difference between, say, a Skoda and a Mercedes Benz. They are both cars but have different values, qualities etc (and yes, the still both only get you from A to B in the end )

I agree that I did mention the hour part later on and acknowledged that my post could have been worded better. It's my fault for writing something that was interpreted differently to how it was meant, and no-one elses. Toad's right here.

I don't think that £80 for an hour in a restaurant is devaluing and when you look at all of the restaurants that are generally empty between Sunday and Wednesday then your options are at times somewhat narrower. Again, Toad is right that restuarants generally want you to work longer.

Where I live we have a holiday season and for 7 or 8 months of the year it's pretty quiet with some people closing up and living on what they make during the four to five months of the holiday season. I wouldn't work at low rates during the peak times but if you want to keep your hand in, in the off season then it's a buyers market and if you were a pro you will have to consider other options in order to live. I fully understand Toad's reasoning.

Other than that, I agree on everything else that Toad has added, particularly the bit about the magic circle magician. Obviously in a post such as this we can't cover every details and keep up with what else is going on. If I were doing someone a favour, whatever it may be, then I would make sure that they didn't think that what you are doing is, or can be interpreted as the going rate. However, I would agree that not everyone will take this approach but I can only speak for, and be responsibile for my own actions.

Perhaps when I'm next in Wolverhampton we can debate over a pint to show that there are no hard feelings?

None at all Just a healthy discussion and it appears less distance between us than it may have first appeared In fact I'm starting to struggle to see the differences

Good point about the meal only costing the restaurant £30 (if that). The price you pay is so much higher than the cost of the meal.

Anyways, I've been following this thread with much interest as I'm considering trying to get some paid work at the moment.

The whole thread has been very, very helpful

Me too

I don't think it's worth getting hung up about the different that it costs the restaurant and what they charge you. Think about the artistry of the chef who's cooking your meal and just like us magicians, there are some good chefs and some that are not so good.

He (or she ) too could feel undersold etc. if he thought about his food being traded. There are a whole many different ways of looking at the world and that's what makes us individuals.

Just one final point, Toad said earlier about getting a meal thrown in whilst you're working and I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about going back on a seperate night with Mrs DAT and enjoying a good night out without any performance involved, being treated that little bit extra special because you now have a relationship with the establishment.

Toad said earlier about getting a meal thrown in whilst you're working and I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about going back on a seperate night with Mrs DAT and enjoying a good night out without any performance involved, being treated that little bit extra special because you now have a relationship with the establishment.

Thats what I was meaning too, I've had free meals thrown in on top of the wage, where I've gone back on a different night with girlfriend and been treated like royalty. I get asked all the time if I want a bite to eat at the end of a performance, but as you say, that is different.

As to the Chef being devalued by trading his food for something worth a lot more than the meal, I can't quite see that one?