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Happy Toad wrote:what we can't debate as it is a clear fact is that many people starting out to not find RRTCM the best way for them to start.

But is it not fair to give them a recomendation of a book that many find to have been an invaluable, if not vital, aid to their start in magic? If they find it hard to manage then so be it, they can try something else. It isn't as if RRTCM is a bank breaker, and when they feel that they have enough experience in magic to be able to follow what is being said in an older style of writing that many find unusual today they can return to it.

From my point of view I have never had any problems learning from books, and can't think of a DVD that I own that couldn't be put into the format of a book and be more user friendly. I am not sure about others but I certainly find flicking backwards and forwards through pages in a book considerably simpler then rewinding a dvd to the right point to see something again.

Happy Toad wrote:what we can't debate as it is a clear fact is that many people are starting out to not find RRTCM the best way for them to start.

I think the problem is that people are just repeating what other people have said, thinking they're giving good advice. Unfortunately somewhere along the line they've got confused.

I distinctly remember people telling me that RRTCM was the Bible of Card Magic, in the same way that Bobo's is the Bible of Coin Magic. Upon reflection, I whole heartedly aggree with that analogy, but that doesn't mean I think it is the best place to start from. Let me explain.

RRTCM contains within its covers an enormous wealth of knowledge and if you were to disregard it as an important text you would be making a big mistake. However, just as the actual Bible is not always very easy to understand (I'm sure people can sympathise) so to is the RRTCM and there is wher it's real value lies. It takes effort and hardwork to firstly understand, and secondly out into practise, the contents of the RRTCM. By trying to master the techniques in RRTCM you are going through a process which sets you up for the rest of your magical career and teaches you the value of mastering a technique through hard work and practise.

However, like I said I don't think that RRTCM is the best place to start when begining magic and this is because (like I've said before) when you start you should be having fun with magic, becuase at the end of the day, if you're not having fun with it, what's the point of doing it?

The bottom line is that RRTCM should be a compulsory addition to any magician's Library and should be regarded and studied with the respect it deserves, but that respect should be born of a desire to learn more and more about magic which will ultimately make it even more fun for you to perform* and for your audience to watch.

*N.B. I just thought I would mention the fact that even though I may seem to be promoting magic as a purely egotistical endevour, it shouldn't be. There's nothing like the buzz of nailing somebody with a magic effect. When they react to a trick that you have performed, it is an unbelieveably good feeling and the stronger their reaction the better the feeling. Therefore, our aim as magician's should be to make the audience have the best time possible and therefore increase their "reactablity" and therefore, indirectly, enjoy ourselves more. Many magicians perform bad magic because they perform tricks which please them rather than the audience. Yes, this may be enjoyable, but ultimately it cannot even compare to the feeling of making an audience laugh/cry/sream with good magic that they enjoy.

But is it not fair to give them a recomendation of a book that many find to have been an invaluable,

It's perfectly fair to recommend it Nick, but not to make out it is "The way" to start out. It has a place and for some it is the best way to start but for many others it actually puts them off. I think it actually damages magic when new people are told that the very best way to start in magic is to get RRTCM. The reason being that many believe this advice as it comes from such experienced magicians, they buy the book, find it really hard going and decide that magic is not for them.

Myself and Will along with Gary and others are pretty much at one on this issue. I'd say the average newbie to magic would be better served by buying a few great self working tricks and just having some fun with them. Maybe they will never want or need to learn sleights at all, maybe the buzz they get from the self workers will drive them on to learn more.

It keeps being stated that to reach the pinnicle in magic you need the best foundation about only achieved from books like RRTCM, even if this was accepted as true ( Which I don't ) the fact remains that many that enquire about starting in magic have no ambitions to be a top magician, they just want to have a bit of fun with some mates and family. This clear fact does not seem to register at all with all those that blindly recommend the lies of RRTCM and BoBo.

Happy Toad wrote:It's perfectly fair to recommend it Nick, but not to make out it is "The way" to start out. It has a place and for some it is the best way to start but for many others it actually puts them off.

I may be getting a little bit picky here but in this case RRTCM was in fact recommended as a good place to start, not the best place. Unfortunately I think we have had this discussion so often that everyone knows each other's place on the issue and assume that exactly the same things are being said each time.

I have stated my preference and fully accept that others may not find it so easy to get the full benefit from the written word but I think it is important not to assume that every new member will think in the same way as you and therefore try to give the broadest possible advice. For many RRTCM will put people off, but equally there will be others who will be put off by the expense of spending more on one trick than you would on the cornucopia of good advice and technique to be discovered in Royal Road and yet others who will be lead to believe that by being presented with a full patter for an effect on a DVD it should be learned by rote.
Conversely many new magicians will read Royal Road and benefit, many will buy a packet trick and learn to perform to whet their appetite and others will be inspired by DVD performances to go on and create their own stuff and broaden the methods of dilivery of the learning they seek.

It is all a delicate balancing act which differs from person to person.

Instantly disagreeing with other peoples recommendations does not seem to me to be entirely productive, perhaps simply pointing out the possible failings of that recommendation whilst retaining its positive points would be a far more useful and constructive way to help new magicians into the saddle.

speaking as a dyslexic and founding member of d.a.f.t. i found rrtcm a bit heavy on the old eyepies, wereas markwilson's has lots of pictorial explanations and large type which is very helpfull.
at £14 its nearly 4x as expensive as rrtcm but covers cards, coins, rope, silk and stage magic so i think its worth the extra cash.

dvd's are great for specialising as you can see how a sleight or move needs to be done and even though there are dvd's out there like paul daniels mesmerising magic that are general and cover a range of magic, theres enough magic variety in mark's book to keep you going for several yaers as i can atest too.

now whos got my royalty fee, anyone.

Please understand, I don't want to disparage the specific use of DVDs - they have their place and can be useful tools in studying and learning magic. In fact, I have a reasonably large library of videos and DVDs that I've purchased over the years. And, in some cases, they are excellent tools that books would have a hard time equalling.

For example, Joe Lefler's series on balloon modelling. It is certainly easier to understand modelling balloons by having Joe show you, step by step rather than trying to figure it out from a book. It is also interesting to see performer's specific takes on how specific sleights should be handled (like the difference between Doc Eason's palming of a card and Michael Close's handling, or Paul Cummins' treatment of the Bobo switch, compared to Gregory Wilson). And, in such comparisons, you start to realize that these performers all have different, subtle handlings that they've worked through, on their own, which works specifically for them.

Studying from a book leads each performer to their own specific handling of what works best for them, rather than trying to copy another performer's style, which may only be suited to them.

So, how about a solution? Maybe a loose recipe on how to go about choosing books to DVDs? I'll say at least 5 books to 1 DVD is a good mix.

Mike.

I was just going to say a similar thing...

I believe DvD's are great to learn the actual sleights from, but books to learn the routines. You can put your own style when you read a book, and use your imagination, whereas a dvd, you can sometimes just copy whats going on, and it will be obvious when you perform.

A good example for me.... when you read a book, like Willy Wonka for example, you create the characters in your head.... if you watched the film first, then read the book, you would just have Gene Wilder in your head, its hard to imagine anything else.

This makes sense to me, maybe others have the same thinking, and its just my opinion. I did also say in my first post, RRTCM is a good place to start, not the first, best and only place. I can't comment on Oz's born to perform, but he is a good teacher on some of the downloads I've had.

What an interesting debate it turned out to be though