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Demitri wrote:ID will get killer reactions, but I personally find it limiting.

I heard a quote once, something like:

If you know a hundred ways to find a selected card, and one way to reveal it, you know one trick. But if you know one way to find it and a hundred ways to reveal it, you know a hundred tricks.

I think this applies here. Although these tricks may be done in the same way, they seem entirely different.

1. You spread a deck of cards on a pool table and ask the spectator to hit the cue ball. The card the cue ball stops nearest to is seen reversed in a prediction deck.
2. A spectator removes one card from a deck, turns it over, and replaces it. The card is then shown to be reversed in a "sympathetic deck".
3. One card is shown reversed in a deck. You ask the spectator to guess which one it is, then spread through to show that he was right.

Not really relevant but I don't think that the ID is "limiting" and I need an excuse for typing something .

Kati

Demitri

You could argue that the more advanced you become, the more ways you could put a gimmicked deck, such as the Svengali to use.

I agree with what NickJ wrote and irrespective of how good you become at card handling, fourishes etc. using an ungimmicked deck, it doesn't make other decks obsolete.

You may decide that you no longer want to use them and that's fine. With good presentation these decks are still capable of helping to produce some great magic.

dat8962 wrote:I agree with what NickJ wrote

Woohoo! Looks like I've got popular opinion on my side for once!

A lot of gimmicked decks can be considered "one trick ponies", however, the svengali, stripper and invisible decks to name just those which have been mentioned in this thread are far from that. As Kati said:

If you know a hundred ways to find a selected card, and one way to reveal it, you know one trick. But if you know one way to find it and a hundred ways to reveal it, you know a hundred tricks.

The svengali allows you to reveal a choice in ways not possible with an ordinary deck, the ID allows a much cleaner handling than is possible with all but the most advanced of sleight of hand (I know I can't manage to remove a genuine deck from its box and have a card appear to already be face down in it without any 'funny business') and the stripper makes card control very simple so you can concentrate on the presentation.

Demitri, I don't want to seem to criticise but I think you should have a further play with these decks, free your mind of the preconceptions you have and see what you come up with. I am certain you will no-longer find them limiting or obsolete.

wow thanks for all the advice....all the different opinions helped me decide and ill probably get, ID, stripper and svengali...maybe also mental photography

Yes people's views will vary, it all depends what you are using the decks for and in what situation.

Nickj wrote:

Woohoo! Looks like I've got popular opinion on my side for once!

Let's not get carried away

It's not just revealing a card, it's sometimes how you reveal the card. Kati provided a method for using an ID if you happen to have a pool table lying around so here's one for a Svengali that I have used.

I burn a hole into one of the re***ted cards and conceal this somewhere. Riffle the deck to show dirrerent cards then force the same clean card (easily done) and push it back into the deck, get the spec to fire an invisible gun and say bang. produce the concealed card from an impossible location with the bullet hole in it. Put it on the face and then riffle again to show that the whole deck has turned into the selected card.

This is the routine in it's basic form but with with a good presentation it's strong stuff to the laymen. Do that with a normal deck

dat8962 wrote:riffle again to show that the whole deck has turned into the selected card.

Noooooooo!

Sorry, I don't like doing this at all under any circumstances. The beauty of the svengali is that it does everything it does without arousing any suspicion of dodgy cards. As soon as you do this one in every ten people will instantly know what you did as they had a cheap one themselves at some point and they will spend the rest of the evening telling everyone else how it is done (well maybe not, but it's possible).

stephenmagic wrote:
Good DVD:

Born to perform

Good Book:

Mark Wilson's complete course in magic (essential purchase!)
Royal road to card magic (read reviews of it first)

is it worth getting BOTH BOrn to PErform and Mark Wilsons complete course in magic, or should i jus get one over the other??

Mark wilson book covers all aspects of magic from the basics through to some illusions. Born to perform just deals with cards.

so its worth getting both cool..k thanx

I have to agree with nickj that this is possible but those laymen with a cheap deck rarely put any presentation into their use of it.

If you get the presentation right and have sold the deck as being normal, then doing the riffle once to end the routine is far less risky in my opinion and if anyone has the cheap version, they are unlikely to recognise it if the presentaiton is good. While their mind is catching up you've ditched or swapped the deck and you're clean.

Sitting down and riffling one way and then the other way, over and over again is asking for trouble but that's not what I'm talking about.

Katriel - I respect your opinion on the ID, and I understand your stance.

I won't say I disagree with the "100 tricks" quote - but I don't think that's a universal truth. The reveal is different, but in the minds of some laymen - they'll still consider them along the same lines. In a wallet - in your pocket - some people don't differentiate between the two. However, I see where you're coming from. However, you seem to have forgotten that my quotes says "personally" - I didn't say magicians find it limiting, I said I find it limiting. And I do. Just like some people don't like the Black Tigers, I'm not too fond of my ID.

I still uphold that the Svengali deck becomes less useful the more skilled you become. Perhaps obsolete was too strong a word, but it has been my experience that the more you learn, the less you rely on gimmicks to do the work for you. That's where I was coming from on this.

Once you learn controls and sleights - you don't really need to carry a Svengali with you. I'm not saying you shouldn't have one, or use one from time to time. You CAN still do great routines with a Svengali deck, don't get me wrong. Like ID, it has its time and place.

But unlike a stripper (which was the point of my position) it can be used at all times, in all places. The stripper deck (out of the group mentioned) is the utility that I feel becomes more powerful, the better you get. The original intent of this thread was we were asked about our opinions on which trick decks are better. In my opinion, the stripper deck is a far more useful utility than any of the others, because the gimmick hides in plain sight and can stand up to close scrutiny.

Demitri wrote:

I still uphold that the Svengali deck becomes less useful the more skilled you become. Perhaps obsolete was too strong a word, but it has been my experience that the more you learn, the less you rely on gimmicks to do the work for you. That's where I was coming from on this.

Once you learn controls and sleights - you don't really need to carry a Svengali with you. I'm not saying you shouldn't have one, or use one from time to time. You CAN still do great routines with a Svengali deck, don't get me wrong. Like ID, it has its time and place.

Yep, see what you're saying and can't disagree

I've had a svengali for ages, but never used it.
Only recently I discovered its true potential, and the possibilities for killer routines with it.