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Opinion I know is divided on Royal Road but to write it off as boring is I think to condemn an influential text book. I must admit to having limitted patience with the view that "books are too hard", I think this shows a lack of ability to concetrate.

There is no easy way to learn magic and ducking reading a book which has excellent techniques and some good beginner tricks in it because its style is boring is missing something which could form a basis for all of the card magic you will ever want.

Hi Timk,

I went to a "Meet The Magic Circle" evening a year or two ago. I was talking to a couple of the magicians there and they recommended the Royal Road as the best place to start for card magic, with the proviso that you work your way through the book from start to finish rather than dip into different chapters. I've taken the book on holiday with me ever since and worked through a few chapters each time. You do have to concentrate on it and I find I re-read each chapter two or three times but I find the effort really worthwhile. My advice is take your time, learn the basics and take it from there.

Opinion I know is divided on Royal Road but to write it off as boring is I think to condemn an influential text book. I must admit to having limitted patience with the view that "books are too hard"

Boy I get fed up with people that are so narrow as to think that their opinion has to be correct.

Let me explain something that is not opinion but FACT.

Lot's of people dislike Royal Road to Card Magic.

Not because they are stupid or lazy but not everyone learns the same way, some people are visual learners, some people have difficulty translating dry text into a picture inside their head. Some people prefer to see a move. Basically some people are different to you.

If one of those people explicitly tells you they find books difficult, don't try and tell them they are wrong, accept they might just be different to you and take it from there.

You know I recall going back many years to school how I struggled to learn maths and thought it was me, I had a very good teacher but just found the subject hard. I changed teacher and suddenly found I could understand it. The exact same has just happened to one of my children. One method of teaching that may work for some people or even most people doesn't mean it's best for everyone.

Please stop stuffing RRTCM down everyones throat, some of us will vomit it back up.

Sorry for ranting but I've tried in the past to redress the balance on this issue but people will insist on strongly recommending RRTCM even when it's clearly inappropiate.

I have no problem with people recommending RRTCM but I agree with Happy Toad that there are people who prefer visual learning and I certainly fall into that category.

I have always been someone (whether at school, college, university or beyond) that finds it easier to learn things by example rather than just reading text on subjects.

I have a small handful of magic tricks now and some of them come with printed instructions and some come with DVDs. I find the ones that comes with DVDs to be far far easier to learn. It also makes the subject far more interesting in my opinion as you can see what you are hoping to achieve and helps spur you on. This is because at the beginning you cannot do it but you get to see what it will look like once you can and that can be a great source of encouragement. Plus it also makes it easier to see where you are going wrong.

ht, I know that we have a long history of disagreeing over this matter, but I think that if you re-read some of your own posts regarding RRTCM you will find that they may seem equally as narrow to someone reading them for the first time.

As with regard to "stuffing RRTCM down everyones throat" I think you are equally out of order by condemning it every time it is mentioned.

And by the way, though I am sure that most of those here who prefer to learn by DVD do so for the reasons you have stated, I am equally as sure that there are many members who have never tried to learn from a book because DVDs tend to be more attractively marketed and will seem to be easier to those who want everything spoon fed to them.

nickj wrote:And by the way, though I am sure that most of those here who prefer to learn by DVD do so for the reasons you have stated, I am equally as sure that there are many members who have never tried to learn from a book because DVDs tend to be more attractively marketed and will seem to be easier to those who want everything spoon fed to them.

I know what you mean, but I do try learning magic from books. I do have the RRTCM and have started learning the basic shuffles in the first chapter from it.

I just find that it is easier for me to keep my interest when I am able to follow someone doing the trick than just reading the steps from a book. For me it just makes the learning curve a more interesting ride. Don't get me wrong - I am sure I will get round to reading and practicing a lot more from RRTCM but it's not really my preference.

For example, with RRTCM (although it is probably only as an example) I have found myself reading some of the steps from it, but not quite understanding what they mean. I then have to keep reading it and reading it in the hope it will become clearer. For example, RRTCM describes tqo different shuffles one after the other, but to me they seem to be exactly the same shuffle so I am obviously missing something.

However, if this had been explained on a DVD and shown to me, I am sure it would have been a lot simpler to understand.

I understand, and please don't think I was refering to you specifically as you had already stated that you were a visual learner despite having tried books. It is those people who don't bother to try because they are too lazy that get to me.

Boy I get fed up with people that are so narrow as to think that their opinion has to be correct.

Let me explain something that is not opinion but FACT.

pots and kettles anyone?

Right the two people that have just indicated that I'm being narrow I challenge to back it up.

I call it narrow when someone specifically states they don't want books and still they get recommended a book. I on the other hand have recommended books where appropriate and never suggested that people that don't use Dvds are somehow lesser people by being lazy or having any other negative traits.

As with regard to "stuffing RRTCM down everyone’s throat" I think you are equally out of order by condemning it every time it is mentioned.

I rarely condemn it rather I offer an alternative, in this case I condemned it because it's clearly inappropriate advice. Since the book is often raved about and since a lot of people don't like it I tend to try and redress the balance as I was one of the suckers that only saw the rave reviews and wasted my money on it. I wish someone had given me an alternative view at the time.

And by the way, though I am sure that most of those here who prefer to learn by DVD do so for the reasons you have stated, I am equally as sure that there are many members who have never tried to learn from a book because DVDs tend to be more attractively marketed and will seem to be easier to those who want everything spoon fed to them

You know babies are spoon fed for a reason, when your new to magic there is nothing wrong with being introduced the easy way. Magic does not have to be difficult, it's not better cos it took you ages to figure out just how your supposed to hold your hands before you even begin to practice the move, then discover you've learnt it wrong because the darn illustration was inadequete to see it clearly.

Nearly everyone agrees that learning from a Dvd is easier than a book, esp a book like RRTCM. This is true not just for visual learners. You may take some satisfaction in encouraging people to start the hard way, but most people will prosper if it's made easier for them. Sure move on from Dvds to any book you like and start with books and never look at a Dvd if you want. But don't suggest to everyone even when they specifically ask not to be recommended a book that they should buy rrtcm.

And by the way I will keep railing against it's indiscriminate recommendation as long as people keep recommending it as "the way" to start. When people offer it as one way that many people have found helpful I'll certainly not shout it down as that is perfectly reasonable.

Finally as an aside I once recommended that someone should buy Rrtcm because I felt that this particular book was perfect for them, I further accept that it is well loved by many, if only some people would accept that Dvds are the best route for some other people.

I call it narrow when someone specifically states they don't want books and still they get recommended a book

noone actually recommended it after timk asked for "Is there anything that is equivalent to the Royal Road To Card Magic but in DVD format ? " what did actually happen was that the thread went slightly off topic and people discussed the merits of rrtcm noone recommended anything
the whole matter comes down to the thing that you are so narrow against... "other peoples opinions". ok you dont like it and others dont like it.. but there are still many who do like it and have used it since they started in magic and so they recommend it. for example take the Bible... i couldnt care less about it but im continually having it pressed down my throat by people who think that i SHOULD be reading it but the diference is i dont feel the need to tell anyone who cares to listen that they SHOULDNT read it.. i actually get a life and move on its no big thing. Or maybe i should ask whens the Dvd version out so i could pick it up better?

Mog said:

noone actually recommended it after timk asked for "Is there anything that is equivalent to the Royal Road To Card Magic but in DVD format ? "

This was the question:

I find reading books on magic quite difficult and find it easier to learn tricks by being shown how it is done. And to be honest I find it more interesting too.

This was the very next post: ( proving you wrong Mog )

.... I have found that the Royal Road is a superb basis for learning card magic. It isn't easy, but almost nothing which is worthwhile is. Reading the book is part of the learning process.....

Clearly from the above post the implication is that of course it's hard this way but this is the best way. If you doubt this implication see his next point.

I must admit to having limitted patience with the view that "books are too hard", I think this shows a lack of ability to concetrate.

This is the kind of attitude that annoys me and comes through all the time by some of the Rrtcm support group. Not only is Rrtcm the best way, but your somehow deficient if you prefer Dvds.

Now Mog I claimed this attitude was narrow, since to suggest that one particular way was the way and that the major other method showed a lack of ability to concentrate is Narrow. It's also woefully ignorant of the different types of people and the fact some people learn better with a method that might be different to the way another person may learn best. .
Further why the hell should we have to concentrate to figure out how we are supposed to hold our hands when by looking from multi angles in slow motion on a Dvd we can see how we are supposed to?

Finally your Bible story, is a ridiculous argument. Perhaps if the Bible was teaching you a visual art you might have cause to ask for a Dvd, and in fact there are millions of audio Bibles that are used and some people find much easier. I for one would not argue with someone that found they learnt much better from the audio version that they really ought to read it properly from a book and forget a modern Bible stick with one written eons ago like the King James cos personally I learnt much better by ploughing through the King James and learning the old grammar and language. Mind you there are narrow Christians that try and argue this as well, so maybe it's a good analogy, though to back up my point not yours.

Personally, I agree that there are many different was of learning and teaching. When at school you're generally not in control of the learning process so you will get different results from different people.

When you leave school and continue learning on your own, you do have the choice and it's important to understand that there is no right or wrong way. It's all a matter of figuring out what the best vehicle is or you, in order to enable you to learn.

Whether you favour DVD's or not, it's often fairly easy to learn a trick from written text if it's well written, and presented with a few illustrations. Yes it will take a little extra time and effort than watching a DVD but it depends on your commitment.

Personally, I like DVD's but if I don't dismiss books and pamphlets. I often look around in dismay at the decline of people's ability to read and write to a standard that was taken for granted a few years ago.

As for RRTCM, perhaps this is a good example of changing times. The content cannot be faulted but the way that it's written and presented is definately outdated in my opinion. Definately time for a re-write.

*sigh* as usual your missing the point and would just rather waste time arguing. the whole point of the bible story was

for example take the Bible... i couldnt care less about it but im continually having it pressed down my throat by people who think that i SHOULD be reading it but the diference is i dont feel the need to tell anyone who cares to listen that they SHOULDNT read it.. i actually get a life and move on, its no big thing

that if i was like you then everytime i was subjected to some @sshole who decided that i should learn about the ways of god regardless of my feelings on the matter then i should start raving about how much the bible is an outdated book and complete bulls**t that could have been written in a pub one night by three drunks and how it offends me so much whenever its suggested BUT i'd rather rise above that and allow others to actually voice their opinions without being a sanctimonious bore about the whole thing

It's clear you are missing the point Mog.

The first point was that I asked you to back up your accusation. You missed that point.

The second point you miss is that once again you have been proved completely wrong, not my opinion but a clearly provable fact, when you claimed

noone actually recommended it after timk asked for "Is there anything that is equivalent to the Royal Road To Card Magic but in DVD format ?

Finally while you may not bother to argue the case against the Bible, I guess you also haven't bothered to join a forum about religion. I have joined a magic forum and when people ask advice I can be bothered to help if I'm able. Another rubbish analogy that does nothing to help your case.

1. ok the fact that you automatically point out that rrtcm is a waste of time everytime its mentioned would make you narrow minded?

2. Noone did point out that timk SHOULD buy rrtcm after he mentioned that he didnt want a book, what happened was (as imentioned earlier) the thread went off topic and people dicussed the merits of the book... noone actually said "timk buy this book"

and what the hell are you talking about me joining a religious forum for? the point i was making was that everyone is entitled to their own opinion without people ranting and raving about it like you do everytime someone mentions the rrtcm.

But as usual it now descends into another of your "im right and everyone else is wrong" games and the whole point of the thread is lost.

ok so if it will make you happy then everytime anyone mentions the rrtcm in place of a dvd then we'll just ban them because they obviously dont know what they're talking about.