talkmagic.co.uk

SirRawlins wrote:At the end of the day GoldFish ... i think the forum would benefit from a segmant like this ... if you dont want to take part in it then there is no presure ... thats the beauty of it.

Rob

To be honest Rob, as soon as I read the premise for a Talk Magic contest, I decided I would not be taking part.

However, if you guys are going to be taking this idea forward, you need to consider everything. It is a great idea in theory but in practise it could very easily fall apart (just like communism ).

But, don't get me wrong, if it can be done, I would love to see it happen. I just think that there is a huge potential for it being flawed and unfair.

You will have to be extremely thorough in your approach to rules, judging etc.[/list]

I couldnt agree more Will,

We will be exploring the avenues thoroughly first, and I'm sure there i a way of testing everything first.

Rob

I need to add some comments here.

1: Rules
I love your start of some guidelines Rob, it's a good start. Added to this, we need more guidlines and rules on how to vote. The rules I see, right now, are:

- Friend-voting strictly illegal (user will be blocked if suspicous behavour)
- can't come up with more at the moment

2. Comment to GoldFish and others

Yes, I aggree, to a certain extent. However, if it's magicians judging a magic competition, then they will ultimately be judging different aspects of the performance than a lay audience would. A magician by nature will pick up on things which a lay person will not. A routine could blow a lay audience away but do nothing for an audience of magicians. Therefore the end result of a magic competiton judged solely by magicians will not be reflective of the magical performance in a productive way. And I am of the opinion that there is no point in conducting a contest if nothing productive comes of it.

I don't see the problem at all. This will be the same for everyone entering, and be pretty fair. And also, - as a magician, would you like to be rated on top, because laymen vote you on top? I would rather be rated in the middle, if I knew that it was magicians giving me a honest criticism. This is a forum for magicians, and in the file upload section, we already comment each others work, from a magicians view. If you as a magician are afraid of being rated, voted or commented by magicians, just don't submit for the contest? To avoid magicians being afraid to join the contest we should rather create rules and guidelines, and maybe prizes, urging magicians to be part of the contest. Of course some conducting comes out of it. A magician will put alot more work into a contest than a regular video. A magician will of that reason put more work into his magic. For that reason, a magicians smoothness and technique, will get even better. And if that's not enough, what about the fun of a contest?!

rcarlsen wrote:If you as a magician are afraid of being rated, voted or commented by magicians, just don't submit for the contest?

Let's not get petty.

as a magician, would you like to be rated on top, because laymen vote you on top?

Yes I would. This doesn't mean that I would be ungrateful if my fellow magician's voted me as a good magician, but personally I would cherish the lay accolade higher. In an ideal situation we would be praising magicians for doing well in the "Lay World" e.g. Criss Angel, David Blaine and Derren Brown.

This is a forum for magicians, and in the file upload section, we already comment each others work, from a magicians view.

Yes, but the File Sharing forum is not a contest. It is a place for magicians to share effects to get honest critique and ideas on their performances, before they release them on the public.

And a contest is not the same as the File Sharing Forum. In a contest you are rating the performer on a single performance. There is no chance for improvement or change; all the focus is on that one performance. And for that reason, all of the performer's effort goes into that one performance; all of their focus is on impressing the judges and winning that specific competition. If the judges are just magicians then all they will do is try and impress those magicians. Magic for magicians is not magic at all, its showing off.

A magician will of that reason put more work into his magic. For that reason, a magicians smoothness and technique, will get even better.

This simply isn't true for the reasons already stated. A competiton is not about getting better once ou have performed in said competition. The competition is the culmination of your practise and preparation. What is the incentive to get better once you have competed?

See your point. So let's just forget this thread

Calm down boys ... jesus ....this idea is great Rune .... lets continue the thread ... PM if you want to keep things private, i have some nice ideas on how we can stop freind voting etc etc .... I'm quite competent on my PHP and MySQL skills ... i know how the forums work underneath the skin.

Rob

My post was more like irony than serious....
I still think the idea is great, but accept that ppl don't agree....

Actually, I think that the contest would not work, but for different reasons.

One of the great things about talkmagic is that there are people of all abilities here...people like me, people like Rune, even some working pros. Unfortunately, you can't really compare my card tricks to Rune's, for example - so the contest would be extremely hard to judge.

Kati

It's hard to judge, but again, it's voted by several different persons. Some like that kind of magic, and moves, another part of the ppl like others. And again, some get the kick of an idea, and for that reason like an effect, while others care about the whole routine. I don't think it is crucial for attendees to be the most smooth magician, to win a contest. It's all in the effect as well. of course smoothness counts, but, hey, have I been fooled by the most simple routines and effects alot? - Yes, and if the most simple "Donald-Duck-Trick" fooled me, I would vote it ! So, it's more about creating rules, guidelines and recommandations for this contest, that finding all the negative aspects of suggestion.

Yep, I'm still with Rune on this one, like i say, its not all down to technical capabilities and correctness ...

... Think of the flocks of people that watch Dirty Tricks each friday.

Rob

Rawlins, I see your point here, but:

"its not all down to technical capabilities and correctness"

This just isn't true. The file sharing forum has been brought up in this thread, and that same forum shows how your comment isn't really valid in this particular discussion.

The very nature of a competition is PRECISELY about technical capabilities and correctness. While different methods are employed to produce the same results, the ABILITY to perform the methods well is exactly what would be judged.

You can't hold a competition and say that technical ability and correctness doesn't apply. No, it might not be THE only standard, but it's certainly one of the most important.

The real problem is that some people may shy away from the competition for reasons like Kati mentioned. Some people might see Kati's submission, or Runes, or Mogs - and think

"I can't beat that, why bother trying".

And, I'm sorry - no amount of "fair play/fair judging/unbiased opinion" will convince some people that they have a chance in a competition.

There are workarounds, though - as have been mentioned. For instance, equal amounts of consideration should be given to originality and the concept. I may not be as technically proficient as Kati, but perhaps my routine and patter is stronger and more powerful.

But it still doesn't negate the fact that technical ability and correctness are the absolute cornerstones of this kind of competition.

Well, first of all:

"I can't beat that, why bother trying".

This is a VERY easy workaround. Why should ppl see others contributions, before the deadline? Moderators would rather receive the videos by email or something else, and no one would see each others contribs before the deadline was over, and it was time to vote. This is how corresponding contests (non-magic, art-drawings for instance) works. And, if art-artists can do this (which have forums with very popular contests like this), why can't magic-artists?

This sounds like a brilliant idea to me. I see no problem with magicians judging magicians. If a member of your own peer group likes what you are doing then it should go down well with the layman.

It would give people like me who are just moving out of the family performance to the public performance arena superb feedback.

Of course it would be open to stooges and straight video editing cheats but I think that any prize should be small enough to make going to those lengths pretty pointless.

Rune - again, your theory works quite well in practice, but even you have to admit that there will be, no matter the way the contest is held, those who would not enter simply because they feel their skills aren't on par with others involved in the contest.

I've been in many art competitions, and I always found corresponding contests to be mostly counterproductive. A tremendous part of the contest process is to see what other people are doing. Current trends, use of color, that sort of thing.

Our particular skills and work cannot grow if all we do is mail our entries in and see the top three winners. Sure, some will try to emulate the winners, which isn't really a BAD thing, but it cuts down on individuality.

For instance - say we do an ACR contest, and you win. You cannot deny that many who SEE your winning entry will copy your routine, almost move for move. And thus, individuality and improvisation suffers. Why? Because they only see what WON, not what was considered. Even a bad submission has merit. Perhaps someone came up with an outstanding variation using a pass. However, their pass wasn't good or lacked technique - and thus, lost. In a correspondance contest, you would never even know about that submission. We are all missing out on incredible resources for creativity.

Sure, a way around this is to post ALL submissions after the judging is done - but then why not just post them all publicly in the first place?



Johnny Wizz - may I ask why you consider stooges cheating?

Demitri, damned good question.

I suppose that what I mean isn't the planted stooge used for some card through window type tricks but people helping to fake an effect.

I probabaly did not intend this piece to sound like it does when you ask this question.

The whole thing woudl rely on trust to an enormous degree. It would be liable to fall down quvery quickly if that trust was blatantly broken. I would enter on the basis that I don't see the point of cheating. HOwever, I have a lot less to lose than many of the senior members on here, I am still one of the new boys both to the forum and to magic. I am happy to attend the magic club I have just joined and have my work picked over by members, I would be very happy to have some of the astute members of this forum hack my stuff about. Thats how I will learn