talkmagic.co.uk

Hi all,

I've basically been an amateur Magician for a few years now and I'd consider myself skilled at close-up magic. Until recently I had not really considered doing anything with it career-wise.
I'm now however quite keen on trying to do it for a living (at least AS WELL as my day job for the time being) and I'm basically just after some advice as to how I go about getting corporate work and weddings etc... Having spoken to a 20 year old close-up magician who makes £250 a night doing corporate events I started to question what I'm doing sat in this Godforsaken office!
Any advice about where to start, what to do first and generally how I go about securing this kind of work would be much appreciated.

Thanks

This type of question gets asked a lot. The problem is that the people that are successful generally don't want to generate more competition by giving away the secrets of how to get the most lucrative work, unless they are getting paid for the info. by perhaps selling a book. So it tends to be the unsuccessful ones that answer these questions, or at least only vague general advice. So best answer is just to get out there and perform, your unlikely to be able to start straight in with corporate work unless you have good contacts, so forget about the £250 a night gigs and get the ones that you can get and build up until your doing the gigs you really want.

I have an ebook by Randy Charach called secrets of the millionaire magician. I have found it very useful and it has some good basic business advice geared towards magicians,

Pm me for some more details.

Happy Toad wrote:This type of question gets asked a lot. The problem is that the people that are successful generally don't want to generate more competition by giving away the secrets of how to get the most lucrative work, unless they are getting paid for the info. by perhaps selling a book. So it tends to be the unsuccessful ones that answer these questions, or at least only vague general advice. So best answer is just to get out there and perform, your unlikely to be able to start straight in with corporate work unless you have good contacts, so forget about the £250 a night gigs and get the ones that you can get and build up until your doing the gigs you really want.

I'm sorry, but that sounds like a huge hunk of tripe

There are DOZENS of books on the market that cover this issue. Start small however, Joel Bauer's HUSTLE, HUSTLE is still one of the best foundation resources that is magic specific. Stay away from all the Gorilla Marketing tomes (one of which has been mentioned) and material like the famed Dave Dee program UNLESS you don't mind hustling people and are good at fast talking. Personally, I loathe dealing with high pressure sales people that don't respect me as well as come-on "lure" marketing techniques such as these programs tend to encourage. I treat my patrons the way I want to be treated, it's that simple and that's the rule that I feel to be the most important of them all. (Rather than wasting your money on these hype programs, just get the Dale Carnegie books most of it is based on to begin with)

I'll assume you are still young (college age) so get it right up front, THIS IS A BUSINESS e.g. you need to learn how to run it as a such. Take some Communication Courses as in effective speaking & presentation, learn about product presentation (printed form) & packaging, discover and understand the difference between marketing, promotions and sales (though related, they aren't the same thing).

Though I can't find the links right now to the specific articles, check the archieves here, there are some great articles on marketing that have helped hundreds of people in your same situation http://www.online-visions.com/


Now that I've given you the cover all, let's consider a few things, such as "what is your product?"

You're not selling magic, you're selling YOU! The magic is secondary and while it is important, it's just the wrapping paper. What's important however, is that your wrapping paper is more attractive to a buyer than that used by the other shmucks out there you're competing against...

If you are doing material that is of "current vogue" YOU WILL NOT WORK (or you won't get the kind of money you're dreaming of). You must be unique which means you aren't trying to mimick Derren, Criss or David... you are doing your own style and flavor of magic and when and where possible, magic that does not smack of the current commercial hype. Right now, if you do traditional magic, no mentalism or bizarre styled stuff you probably have a better chance at getting a good paying gig than the guys trying to be someone else.

A good friend of mine mentioned a habit that he has when it comes to selling himself. When agents call him looking for a "Mentalist" or a "Magician" he don't take the gig.

Why?

Because they aren't calling to hire HIM... he's the product, the name brand, etc. IN that this is a guy that gets between $1,500.00 and well over $10,000.00 a gig, I think he's doing the right thing... it's the kind of think we must contemplate as we become "the product".

I'm out of time but I hope what I've shared gives you a bit more hope and understanding as to what it involved in the real world.

Some good advice from Craig there.


I haven't read Hustle, Hustle myself but that's not the first time I've heard it mentioned so there must be something in it.

I definitely wouldn't have said Carach was "Gorilla Marketing" there isn't a single piece of Geurilla marketing in it but it is written in a pretty cheesy style (I just assumed he was American ) Having worked as both a salesman and a magician I wouldn't say the style it is written in reduces the value of the solid advice that is given in there.
It covers every aspect of marketing, processing bookings and billings, agents, consulting. It's not just about getting gigs but running a business.

The best piece of advice though is free and comes from the Nike adverts...

I won't comment on Craigs rudeness but his post helps prove my point, he immediately starts pointing out the advice that magicians have given via books i.e. they are being paid for their information and then you goes on to give general advice. Exactly what I had predicted.

The fact is that you won't find sales people giving away all their best secrets on how to get the business for free to their competitors, in some cases even their colleagues and this works across the field. Most creative magicians will not release their best material unless either it's likely to be seen and copied, it's worth more to them as a sales/reputation builder than as their own effect or they have moved on and are doing different things. These are hard real world facts.

In exactly the same way working magicians are unlikely to arm their potential competitors with their best methods of getting the type of gigs that they are getting, with no benefit to themselves. Sure if they can sell this information via a book, lecture or other such vehicle, they may do it. They may even do it as an ego thing, but you can be fairly sure they will not create competitors with absolutely no gain to themselves.

Of course if you personally know a magician and they like you and see potential, maybe they will take you under their wing, but giving out that information on a public forum where any one can read, well use your common sense.

Thanks very much for all of your comments, I'll look into getting some literature on the subject. I was just seeing if I could get any pointers as I don't personally know any magicians whatsoever (aside from the chap that I met the other evening who I doubt I'll see again).
I was offered £150 two years ago to do a corporate event but I turned it down as I had a great deal going on at the time and wasn't really interested in making money from magic. This was simply chance as I was in a pub with a friend and some of his work bosses and they personally invited me to their event there and then after seeing some card magic.
Anyway if I get lucky like this again then I'll accept and that'll be the first run on the ladder!
Many Thanks again.

Happy Toad wrote:
The fact is that you won't find sales people giving away all their best secrets on how to get the business for free to their competitors, in some cases even their colleagues and this works across the field.

I have to stick up for Craig on this (despite his rudeness ). People here and on Magicbunny and lots of other forums are more than happy to share. The problem is without knowing anything about Trulymental’s specific situation it is impossible to give anything but general advice.

I could copy out all the ideas I use from Charach’s book but that would take me a lifetime. It is much better he gets one of these books for himself and gleans from it the parts he finds useful.

If we met in a pub and the conversation turns to business I would be more than happy to discuss the methods I use to get gigs but those methods probably wouldn’t be of use to many other people. I work in the VIP of a nightclub and getting to the after parties is a huge part of my income but how many other people work that way? Most get calls get booked and turn up. Hustling and fast talking (as Craig puts it) is a large part of my work but that’s not for most people so my advice about that wouldn’t be relevant.

I use many methods of getting tips that Craig would find abhorrent and he uses some methods that I completely disagree with. You have to get out there and do it yourself to find what works for you. Sure read as many books on the subject as you can even if you only get one booking from something new you have picked up it would be worth getting but in the end you use a mix of those ideas which suit you.

trulymental wrote:I was offered £150 two years ago to do a corporate event but I turned it down as I had a great deal going on at the time

Take up a few of those types of gigs, get some free business cards made up from http://www.vistaprint.co.uk to take with you, learn a couple of tricks that leave the business card in their hand and you’ll be on your way to a career. That’s how I started.

As long as you treat it as a business (see Charach’s book ) and act professionally and are, as Craig said, not just a carbon copy of Blaine, Angel or Derren you’ll be able to quit work within 12 months.

Yers John I see where you are coming from but your not the type of person I'm talking about. If you get a load of competitors all trying to get gigs in your area it wouldn't affect you as you only do a handful of gigs fitting around your well paid job. So sure you haven't got much to lose my giving out any info you know. However if your full time income came from gigs and you had certain methods that were very successful at getting good quality gigs, then I think you may find you had a different attitude. The first time you lose a gig you really wanted to someone that you taught, I think you would be kicking yourself. Anyhow bottom line is this I've spoken to quite a few other full time magicians and they have all said the same. In fact in some cases even finding out how much they charge can be a bit tricky.
So the non full time guys tend to offer the most advice but the best advice is usually only known by the successful full time guys and they are not normally so quick to share it wholesale to anyone. Anyhow if you disagree that's fine I'm not going to argue about it, I'll just watch the thread and see whether it turns out any different to the others I've seen.
Meanwhile Trulymental read the books and get yourself out there and see what you can achieve.

Many years ago my ex went to one of those "Become a millionare in Real Estate" seminars and after the two hour sales pitch for getting everyone to buy the course/system, she asked the guy why he was giving away all of his secrets. His reply is what counts in this situation "Less than 1% of the people that buy the course will make an half-assed attempt at using it and of that group, less than 2% will actually invest the time, money and disciplined that's required for actually meeting the goals that are obtainable."

Think about that.

This is true in every industry I've ever been in and I've yet to see an exception to that rule. Show biz is probably worse when it comes to the statistical facts as to who actually makes a serious attempt over the scores that just dream and chat about it vs. those other "more legitimate" fields like Real Estate. The reason is very simple; most performers see themselves as "artists" and believe that they will just "get discovered" one day by being seen by the right person at the right time... sorry but there is much more to the David Blaine type tale than what you've read in the papers or books. Those are tales woven by pros for the sake of creating and sustaining a certain kind of image. I'm not saying that this is the case in DBs world, but in the majority of "over-night discoveries" the talent that got them the gig had more to do with what they could do in bed vs. what they did on stage. I know that's hard for most of you to swallow (and you will have to swallow if the casting couch heads your way), but it is a grim reality of some of the things that really do happen in this trade and how some people climb the ladder "easier" than others.

Becoming successful in anything, but expecially show biz, requires you to constantly invest into yourself, your act and your image. There are no vacations, not time for a personal life, and forget about being a party kid (quickest way to end your career before it gets started). You go out and you bust your butt during the early week nights doing FREE show case sets (5-10 minute routines at comedy clubs, talent night line-ups, etc.) and BE SEEN in at least 3-5 clubs a night three nights weekly, every week of the month until you have paid schedules filling those time slots. You don't sleep all morning, you're up after a 3-5 hour sleeping shift (in bed by 3 a.m. and up by 8:00 at the latest and heading into a real day's work... the typical pro works a 15-18 hour day, it has nothing to do with the length of the show/act and everything to do with making his/her business function at a continual income bearing level.)

I'll not go into all of the details at this point, I just want you to get a taste as to what is really involved adn what the biggest, most guarded "secret" is -- HARD FREAK'N WORK! The kind of which few are willing to do in that most are not willing to hold to their priorities and goals, allowing life's distractions to get in the way and anchor them down.

Do you want to be in your 40s or 50s, would famous and worth millions but alone with no "family" to speak of?

I can list over a dozen major players that fit that mold. They are guys many of you covet and would like to be like but, are you willing to pay the same price?

HappyToad needs to look at the deeper truth when it comes to the "secrets" of the pros. It has little to do with tactics and a lot to do with having a work ethic, game plan, and the WILLINGNESS to do whatever it takes to make it all come together. Most important, you must be willing to sacrifice a whole lot of things that, in my experience, are far more important and host greater value than all the success and money brings. That was my call, you may be different.

ONE LAST THING... I think John touched on it as have I but I wanted to point out something that's very important... what works for one person will not always work for the next. We each have our own way of communicating and appoaching things adn we must work within that style that fits our nature or we're sunk. I don't like the fast talking hustler approach because it's not who I am... I like to use charm and brilliance over doubletalk and bull s***, so to speak. So it is up to YOU as an individual, as to what style of marketing and communication you are going to use. This will affect the kind of venues and markets you work in as well adn too, the kind of money you can garner. But you simply will not get anywhere doing material or a style that is not natural to who you are.

Don't waste you time looking for the magic pill... it don't exist.

HappyToad needs to look at the deeper truth when it comes to the "secrets" of the pros.

Do I Craig, why is that then?

I like to use charm and brilliance over

I don't like the fast talking hustler approach because it's not who I am... I like to use charm and brilliance over doubletalk and bull s***, so to speak.

You really do need to assess the way you come across mate.

Ahhh, the joys of the internet... lots of word and little when it comes to understanding expressions... or, in this case a classic American saying when it comes to the sales industry "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with Bull Stuff..."

If you haven't noticed, it has worked for certain politicians of late

and here lies another fundalmental flaw in the equation the anglo american divide.

what works for the american audiences may not work for uk audiences same goes for sales and promotions, now i can't and would never dare speak for the american side, that would be plain rude.

i was going to let this whole debate slide away like thease threads generaly do but hey at 1:30am why not give it a bash.

it has been said in this thread before that the product your selling is yourself which is true and that meens answering the big questions people, who are you and why are you more likely to succee than the next magical joe.
anyone can do a card trick but can you make a simple card trick feel miraculas, if you can't stop reading now and go directly to bed because you won't make it.
you can't learn the x-factor that makes you a succesfull performer sure you can learn to engage the audience but you can't learn how to get the audiences attention just by walking on stage.

that said this thread is about making money from magic and selling yourself for that you need to live and breath magic and you need to plan set yourself achievable goals and work 24 /7 to achieve them.
a good place to start is to list your character strengths and weeknesses and work on improving your week areas.
i won't go into advertising as theres plenty on this site if you use the search function, but i will say this talk to as many people as you can comunication skills are the most important skill you will need to suceed in any bussiness, good comunication will boost your confidence and give you access to areas you would not normaly be able to get to.

another big word... sagrifice, yes you will have to pay your dues work the c*** (not the best) jobs do the freebies, just remember its all good experience.
be true to yourself and you will succeed.