talkmagic.co.uk

Follow my advice

GaMeR wrote:I'm confused here. This was on my wish list to start cold-reading but I see it's a little advanced for me. What's for starters??

Well it was the first book I got on the subject and found it very interesting and informative. However, they are people on here far more experienced than I so I would follow their advice first!

I'm sure your book is great Craig but I note a couple of inconsistencies and rather large assumptions in your replies.

Craig Browning wrote:Of course you did and didn't, he's out to get YOUR money not protect and preserve the secrets of a once more closeted sect within magic.

But how exactly are you protecting and preserving these secrets by publishing your own book on the subject and charging $65? Which incidentally is more $$$ than Ian's book. I don't see how you're protecting secrets by making them public - ie. not secret anymore? You and Ian have both published books on the subject and are charging money for them.

Craig Browning wrote:Of course the wouldn't... most of the people you spoke to were probably magicians who do not work as Readers -- people that specialize in this particular skill e.g. they wouldn't see such an obvious element.

With the greatest respect Craig you don't know who I spoke to - you're making lots of assumptions in the absence of facts (which I know is your job as a reader )

Craig Browning wrote:This is called "Politics" the greatest two-edged sword within any and all industries i.e. who you know, who knows of you and who will endorse you. All too frequently it is based on who's butt you've kissed or how many drinks you've bought for this or that personality.

How do you know how Ian Rowland obtained his endorsements? You're making these statements based on what evidence? Consider it another way, would you like it if somebody said the endorsements your book received were because you kissed someone's butt?

Craig Browning wrote:What I said is that it's not something I'd recommend to a novice. There is too much misinformation in it, too much personal opinion that is potentially hurtful (not to mention, dangerous)

As far as I can see what you object to is Ian's opinion on Psychic's - not his cold reading technique. Opinions on Pyschic's are simply that - to overlook this great book because you have a different opinion would be a great shame.

I think the bottom line with these books (or any other product for that matter!) is to read unbiased, non-vested interest reviews and draw your own conclusions.

I really like Banafish's review of Easy Reading (see his post above). Coupled with the reviews and suggestions here, we are developing a nice canon of stuff for cold reading and how it might be combined with other skills we possess to make for the best performance. ER is on my list next after I have look at Ian Rowalnd's book.

TheMightyNubbin wrote:But how exactly are you protecting and preserving these secrets by publishing your own book on the subject and charging $65? Which incidentally is more $$$ than Ian's book. I don't see how you're protecting secrets by making them public - ie. not secret anymore? You and Ian have both published books on the subject and are charging money for them.

I must admit I get a bit tired of some of the 'nitpicking' that goes on in forums..

Craig's book doesn't give away secrets - in the traditional sense of the word. It's actually quite difficult to find on the internet. It is aimed at people who actually want to know how to do this stuff - and is, as far as I know, only available on one website that is geared for performers and people who take this seriously. The price tag is exactly one of the things that would keep your average Joe from buying it - but it is def worth it if you are doing this kind of work.(although I got during the release special )

Ian Rowland's work is actually written with 'exposure' in mind. From the way it's written it doesn't seem to be aimed at those who want to learn cold reading. It has become that, though, precisely because of the 'secrets' it gives away.


PS. - anyone here with the name Joe - that was merely an illustration, please don't take it personally. I doubt you're avg anyway.

taneous wrote:PS. - anyone here with the name Joe - that was merely an illustration, please don't take it personally. I doubt you're avg anyway.

I think it's useful to remember that we're looking at this from the other side of the mirror. I think it's how you take and develop the knowledge in any magic book that's the important thing. To a very great extent, the books themselves are just the starting points for something you create within yourself.

I agree with Tomo's point wholeheartedly....we are trying to build a general sense of the works available, and want to use them in different ways. The list is great and we all can be the judge.

taneous wrote:I must admit I get a bit tired of some of the 'nitpicking' that goes on in forums..

'nitpicking' has nothing to do with it - I'm simply pointing out a few facts and inconsistencies in the interests of fairness and objectivity. Hopefully this will enable people to make an informed choice rather than a biased one from somebody who sits on one or other side of a particular fence. I have no vested interest in either book, paid my own cash for Ian's book and throught it was a great book - as do many others.

taneous wrote:It's actually quite difficult to find on the internet.
It is aimed at people who actually want to know how to do this stuff - and is, as far as I know, only available on one website that is geared for performers and people who take this seriously.

All of this is equally true about Ian's book, he only advertises it on his website (and he's hardly a big popular name like Derren Brown or Banachek). As to Ian's book not being for performers, this is nonsense! Go and look at Ian's comments page:

http://www.ianrowland.com/ItemsToBuy/Co ... ments.html

Derren Brown, Banachek and many more working pro's endorsing his book.

taneous wrote:Ian Rowland's work is actually written with 'exposure' in mind. From the way it's written it doesn't seem to be aimed at those who want to learn cold reading. It has become that, though, precisely because of the 'secrets' it gives away.

Have you actually read Ian's book? The idea that it doesn't teach you cold reading is equally wrong. Ian's book does teach you to cold read, period.

So Ian's instructional book on Cold Reading is exposure but Craig's book on Cold Reading isn't? So what are we learning when we buy Craig's book - stuff that's already out there in the public domain?

*ALL* magic/mentalism books, videos, lectures or whatever are exposure - for a fee. There is nothing 'special' or 'different' to Craig's book in this regard.

All of this is equally true about Ian's book, he only advertises it on his website (and he's hardly a big popular name like Derren Brown or Banachek). As to Ian's book not being for performers, this is nonsense! Go and look at Ian's comments page:

http://www.ianrowland.com/ItemsToBuy/Co ... ments.html

Derren Brown, Banachek and many more working pro's endorsing his book.



taneous wrote:

Ian Rowland's work is actually written with 'exposure' in mind. From the way it's written it doesn't seem to be aimed at those who want to learn cold reading. It has become that, though, precisely because of the 'secrets' it gives away.

Have you actually read Ian's book? The idea that it doesn't teach you cold reading is equally wrong. Ian's book does teach you to cold read, period.

So Ian's instructional book on Cold Reading is exposure but Craig's book on Cold Reading isn't? So what are we learning when we buy Craig's book - stuff that's already out there in the public domain?

In response to your first point; everyone endorsing Ian's book is a noted skeptic, they support the book primarily due to the chapter on how to entrap fraudulent Readers and harass them, not as much due to the content and exposure.

My book deals with an actual Reading systems based on traditional Reading sciences or "divinatory tools" that real world workers of the art employ vs. magician's theory. It is a focused look at the art of being a Reader and a mnemonic method to aid those new to the field when it comes to how to recall what this and that sign relate to, etc. Though I included a handful of routines that can be performed via the system, it is not a book full of tricks and it most certainly is not a book filled with blatant exposure.

The duplicity of the magic world and it's position of "it's ok to expose how psychics (supposedly) do what they do but you can't expose magic tricks to the public" is pure horse pucky! Exposure is exposure no matter what you want to believe and in the case or Rowland and even Randi to some level, we find people patting them on the back for tipping the secrets used by those working in the Mentalism field under the ruse of "protecting the public". BULL! They do it to make a buck and to make themselves look superior to others. They do it to belittle and insult the perspectives of faith known to the greater whole of the public and thus, detoriorate the human dependence upon anything remotely spiritual. Each and every one of the major Skeptics out there promoting this agenda are admitted Agnositics or Atheists or, in the words of the religious world "Soulless" individuals that have little to no respect for the people they claim to serve.

When I said that Ian was playing a Political game when it came to his endorsements, it wasn't assumption. Everyone I know (myself included) does this. Yes, you will get unsolicited endorsements such as I've seen, but you must prime the pump with one or two well represented plugs. For me, the unsolicited endorsements were the important ones though; Richard Webster's forward to the book and Larry Becker's kudos which were totally unexpected.

As to marketing; Ian is represented by a primary distributor and his book can be found in most Magic Stores and on-line retail sites where mine cannot (and probably never will be). Not because it couldn't hold its own in that market but because I don't want every snot nosed kid that like watching Derren Browne with thi knowledge in their hands. I'm not a magic whore in that manner; I contribute willingly and rather freely, but certain things I do protect via price and very limited marketing. I'm not alone when it comes to that appraoch, you all would be amazed as to how many super simple bits of Mentalism sell for thousands of dollars for just one or two typed pages of information.

Now, I have in fact stated that the Rowland book is valid but it simply is not an item I classify as "practical first year study". I'll start a new thread that outlines a few key points on this topic for the sake of clarification.

Hope this clears a few things up however.

Craig Browning wrote:taneous wrote:

Ian Rowland's work is actually written with 'exposure' in mind. From the way it's written it doesn't seem to be aimed at those who want to learn cold reading. It has become that, though, precisely because of the 'secrets' it gives away.

Have you actually read Ian's book? The idea that it doesn't teach you cold reading is equally wrong. Ian's book does teach you to cold read, period.

So Ian's instructional book on Cold Reading is exposure but Craig's book on Cold Reading isn't? So what are we learning when we buy Craig's book - stuff that's already out there in the public domain?

Just for the record - I only wrote the first paragraph

TheMightyNubbin wrote: The idea that it doesn't teach you cold reading is equally wrong. Ian's book does teach you to cold read, period.

What I'm getting at is that Ian's book doesn't teach you how to do a reading, it deals with how(in his opinion) a reading is done. There's a difference.

TheMightyNubbin wrote: Have you actually read Ian's book

Yes - a number of times.

Unfortunately I don't have a copy at hand - but if I remember correctly he actually states at the outset that the book isn't for performers - or something like that. I'll look it up when I get home tonight.

Craig, I'm afraid you've replied with more inaccurate and misleading information.

Craig Browning wrote:In response to your first point; everyone endorsing Ian's book is a noted skeptic, they support the book primarily due to the chapter on how to entrap fraudulent Readers and harass them, not as much due to the content and exposure.

Saying *everyone* that has endorses Ian's book is a skeptic and only endorses it because of one section on entrapping fraudalent readers is just plain wrong and very misleading. How can you possibly make that statement? Do you know each of the 40+ people that are listed on Ian's endorsement page? Have you asked them all individually why they chose to endorse Ian's book? Your suggestion that their endorsement was not because of the content of the book is completely at odds with their own comments.

Craig Browning wrote:As to marketing; Ian is represented by a primary distributor and his book can be found in most Magic Stores and on-line retail sites

Totally untrue! Ian's book is only available from one website (his own), just like yours.

I have to say Craig that making such false and inaccurate statements does not help your credibility.

TheMightyNubbin wrote:Craig, I'm afraid you've replied with more inaccurate and misleading information.

Craig Browning wrote:In response to your first point; everyone endorsing Ian's book is a noted skeptic, they support the book primarily due to the chapter on how to entrap fraudulent Readers and harass them, not as much due to the content and exposure.

Saying *everyone* that has endorses Ian's book is a skeptic and only endorses it because of one section on entrapping fraudalent readers is just plain wrong and very misleading. How can you possibly make that statement? Do you know each of the 40+ people that are listed on Ian's endorsement page? Have you asked them all individually why they chose to endorse Ian's book? Your suggestion that their endorsement was not because of the content of the book is completely at odds with their own comments.

Let's see... I look at the list of names who endorse the book and I look at the list of names allied with either the JRF or CSICops... WOW! They read like a Who's Who of the business in over 95% of the cases.

Craig Browning wrote:As to marketing; Ian is represented by a primary distributor and his book can be found in most Magic Stores and on-line retail sites

Totally untrue! Ian's book is only available from one website (his own), just like yours.

Then you better let all those magic dealers on and off line that have it listed know that they don't carry it... do you need a list?

I have to say Craig that making such false and inaccurate statements does not help your credibility.

None of my statements are false or inaccurate, anyone with just a bit of common sense can see the truth in what I've stated. Another thing that sustains the fact that Ian's book is being pushed by the hardliners of the skeptic's realm is the fact that NONE OF THEM every recommend Richard Webster, Stuart Cumberlind, Mark Strivings, Robert Nelson, Bob Cassidy, or Ron Martin's materials which are the primary resources used by the professionals that actually do Reading work. It's always Ian's book followed by TRADECRAFT, possibly the Lee Earle manuscript and Brad Henderson's THE DANCE -- each, material representative and supportive of the cynic's perspective vs. real world experience in this field...

... and before you go there, there is a lot more to the story when it comes to Ian having been a "Reader" than the general magic community is aware of, so let's not go down that path.

...would anyone like a mint?...

probably not my place to say as such, but - while i enjoy a mass debate as much as the next person; i wouldn't want to see a full blown argument break out on such a good-natured board...

I believe the quote is
"To a believer, no proof is necessary; to a sceptic, no proof is enough."

..and yes, there was a hidden double-entendre in my main paragraph...

now, about that mint?

abraxus wrote:...would anyone like a mint?...

Lovely. I'd like one, please. And perhaps a pint or three of perspective in a nice cosy afternoon pub to wash it down.

Come on, lads. You're not going to agree, so why not agree to disagree? If you keep on, the only thing that'll happen is that strangers will think less of you.

Go on, it's my round...