talkmagic.co.uk

I do want to clarify that I was not singling out Nubbin in the post he refers to in the above but on a more general sense of perspective... as an old shaman I knew used to say "why buy into the guilt if you're not guilty?"

Taneous hist the proverbial nail on the head in his "review" of the Rowland text.

I happen to know for fact that you can order the Rowland book through several U.S. Distributors/Merchants. Rick Maue, a very close friend of mine, actually had copies of it that would be made available during his lectures... others have done the same.

As to me and the JRF thingy... I have no problems with the majority of people that are genuine Skeptics... I'm a skeptic but I also allow room for respecting the beliefs of others. The "Cynics" of today's world is who I and most others (including the Skpetics) have problems with. Extremism on any issue, is simply wrong and incomplete. As I've stated before, I find it simply amazing how well I get along with some of the best known Skeptic's allied with Mr. Randi and yet, I am put through hell by the lesser mignions that have never been in the field doing actual investigations and studies (sadly, most of these two-bit lawyer types stem from the UK, which really makes me wonder some times.)

As an aside to this idea... people within the shut-eye side of the Psychic field mockingly gest at the idea of becoming recognized enough to have the JRF investigate them. For the typical psychic getting James Randi's attention means you just hit the Lottery and are about to become more famous, far more wealthy and in demand than ever before in your life. It's a good thing and not the dreaded negative his membership would wish it to be. Kindof like how Hollywood now exploits the Christian fundamentalists, encouraging them to loudly oppose a new film release. "The Last Temptation of Christ" gained millions in FREE International PR as the result of the fanatical screams against it and hundreds of thousands of people that had not initial interest in the film, went to see it just to see for themselves, what the fuss was about.

Long story short, the more people make things an issue, the more it helps those you are so adamatly opposed to sometimes. The more you call people fools for believing in something you don't, the more you tell them it's not real, the more they tend to dig their heels in and invest themselves into their convictions and "supporting" the underdog. Again, it's human nature

Just a few little things to think about.

So, are you claiming pyschic power? And if so, why sell the book on a site that sells gear like the mega pad?

I think it's ok to give any patter before or during an effect as long as you say it was a 'trick' after. pretending your 'psychic' is not on. imo
Cold reading can be such a powerful effect ppl can change the way the live because of it. Yeah I know ' leave them on a positive note'
How about don't get in a red car?

I'm just babbling. x

DrTodd wrote:So, are you claiming pyschic power? And if so, why sell the book on a site that sells gear like the mega pad?

Let's not go there...

Between the misinterpretation of what I see "being Psychic" is and what others wish to imply, along with the contempt many in magic seem to have around such things, it's a futile course of action.

For me, being "Psychic" simply means that I have learned to see things most choose to ignore. Yes, I do have a naturally high sense of empathy or intuition, but I do not claim any kind of special "powers". I'm firm in my belief that it is all 100% natural, just misunderstood and all too frequently, misrepresented by persons standing on either side of the issue.

As I've stated previously in this and other forums, anyone can learn Divination (Tarot, Palmistry, Runes, etc.) they are "sciences" or "disciplines" that follow both pattern and formula. Those who are open minded enough to actually learn and work with these systems can deliver amazingly accurate Readings without all the psycho-babbly horse pucky the magic & skeptic's world want you to buy into.

I have found that at least 95% of those that would attempt to be my detractors have never studied the contributions made by Richard Webster, Ron Martin or even Herb Dewey to this particular side of the Craft. They haven't allowed themselves to recall the words of Corinda about the art and skill of being an effective Reader and how it is the pennical of a Mentalist's skills -- the one single skill that can support you and create around you the greatest of all sense of legend.

Similarly, I have yet to encounter folks that take on this position, who have actually done it and know, from the inside, what it really is about and what is actually done in 99% of the parlors out there.

If you are a Skeptic, then you owe it to yourself to get a more rounded sense of understanding when it comes to these things, rather than studying (exclusively) the biased materials composed by other skeptics. But just as the fanatical bible thumpes here in the states refuse to recognize any material that challenges the validity of said tome, so the new-born of the skeptic's world refuses to consider anything that may challenge their narrowed point of view e.g. they become Cynics that want everything cut & dry and in black & white rather than a Skeptic, who can still hold onto a modicom of faith or belief, if you would, but who likewise takes all he/she encounters with a small grain of salt vs. face value.

Not to brag, but I've taught far too many people how to be effective Readers over the years, many of them magicians/mentalists who were blown away by how accurate they could be without all the over annylizing and formulas outlined in certain tomes. They did not rely on the Forer principle and they did not stoop to using any form of mechnical trickery, advanced knowledge, slight-of-hand, etc. This is a reality behind what I do and what many of the full-time Mentalists that have been around since before the current trend, have done for decades.

Most of you guys are only aware of the high profile performers that call themselves "Mentalists" but what you don't realize is that the Mentalism community is very closed and the "real work" is not something readily accessed; you nearly have to be invited into it. Whereas most of us are admitted Skeptics, we likewise leave room for possibility and more important, we offer respect to those that do believe vs. bludgeoning them with biased attitudes. More or less, we spoon feed the clients, helping them to slowly accept alternative points of view that deminish the more fantasiful ideas of what Psychics are and what they can and can not do.

I've gone way off topic here, but I think it is very important that folks gain a bit of clarity on this subject vs. embracing that grand umbrella that covers everything surreal. Earlier I got chastized by another person for using "broad statements" in this thread and yet, that same person or those like him, would willingly use similar cover-alls when it comes to the Psychic issue. Double-standards of this sort are what create conflict and what perpetuate the segregation that exists between the deeper realms of Mentalism and the world of the hobbyst magician.

Let's please not turn this into a push-me-pull-you contest of wits.

Craig Browning wrote: Earlier I got chastized by another person for using "broad statements" in this thread and yet, that same person or those like him, would willingly use similar cover-alls when it comes to the Psychic issue.

Lets not insult each others intelligence craig (as you did before), it's obvious you're refering to me. You don't know me at all Craig yet you impose all these beliefs on me, very very unfair.

You did post several 'broad statements', several of which weren't true.

Example:

Craig Browning wrote:Then you better let all those magic dealers on and off line that have it

I'm still waiting for you to post an online link to somewhere other than Ian's site which sells Ian's book.

Craig Browning wrote:Let's please not turn this into a push-me-pull-you contest of wits.

Then why do you make all these lengthy elaborate posts attempting to justify your point of view which you know will fuel the fire? Do you like to court contraversy and cause arguments?

Actually, somebody messaged me with something you said on another site:

"I'm reputed to be one of the most controversial jerks in the business (it's a gift)."

Given your comments it seems like you do deliberatly enjoy causing controversy. Quite honestly, why would you want to do that? Do you think that's admirable behaviour?

I think Craig lays out a strong position and I am looking forward to reading more (no pun intended), especially his Easy Reading book.

This is a fascinating area of work that crosses many disciplines including social and cognitive psychology, social science, among others. The ethical implications of conducting readings are also huge and Craig rightly cautions the use of 'psychic baiting' in Ian Rowland's book.

I was struck by the relative absence of ethical discussion of Derren Brown's 'heist' stunt, where individuals thought they were on a management training course and actually were 'led' to commit a 'crime' in Central London. The emotional state of the remaining individuals that actually drew a (fake) gun and tried to 'rob' a security van made for quite disturbing viewing.

The other area that has not been discussed in this thread is the rising popularity of neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) for life-coaching, management training, and yes, use by mentalists like Derren Brown and Paul McKenna. The 'science' of NLP is highly disputed to date, but a number of assessments are suggesting that NLP 'works', whether through unleashing potential or reorienting one's world view. Again, the ethical implications for employing NLP in a performance setting need to be thought through very carefully.

In the mid-1980s, I was a student subject of memory experiments using hypnosis while at the University of Pennsylvania, and the effects of age regression techniques and other standard hypnosis procedures are quite shocking to the initiate.

Anyway, perhaps I am now off beam here, so I'll shut up

OK, that's it. We, and other members, try to be diplomatic and ask nicely but since some folks blindly ignore such requests then the thread just has to be locked.

Congratulations, I hope that's what was wanted with all this personal nitpicking because that's what you got. You can be darned sure we won't be so lenient in future.