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i understand your points, but I am still just wondering how long should my sponge ball act be while table hopping?

Personally I would say a couple of minutes (2 to 3) maybe a multiply then a vanish and then how about a sponge ball to silk using a TT. Just an idea.

GooGooDolls wrote:i understand your points, but I am still just wondering how long should my sponge ball act be while table hopping?

No offense, but I don't think you do understand the points made. I was trying to say, albeit in a very theoretical and probably pompous way, that Sponge Balls have no place in the professional repetoire of a serious performer. However, if you're a comedy performer, or children's entertainer, exceptions can be made.

But you say you want to know how long your Sponge Ball routine should be whilst tabble hopping. By that I presume you mean you don't have a fully worked out routine and you're just begining to put one together. Let me suggest that you save your time and energy and devote itto other forms of magic which will have a greater effect on the audience.

You may argue that the kids will love them, and they're easy to follow. Trust me, children follow good magic plots better than most adults so don't worry about that aspect.

GoldFish wrote:No offense, but I don't think you do understand the points made. I was trying to say, albeit in a very theoretical and probably pompous way, that Sponge Balls have no place in the professional repetoire of a serious performer. However, if you're a comedy performer, or children's entertainer, exceptions can be made.

I am a big fan of Derren's, but I find a lot of the content of the book to be unrealistic. It's like expecting every single play to be 'Hamlet'. If you produce a masterpiece, fabulous, but people can have a lot of fun watching a Warner Borthers cartoon.

Magic with meaning is wonderful. Producing wonder can also be done be challenging perceptions and expectations.

What I liked about 'Absolute Magic' was that it encourages thought about what we do. As I recall, Derren says that his musings are a model for magic. Not the model.

'Smoke' is one of his best routines. Where's the emotional hook? There really isn't one, but it's a fine piece of work. Just watch Stephen Fry's reaction to it in the first series of 'Trick of the Mind'.

GooGoodolls, if you can afford it, get the 'World's Greatest Magic' Sponge Balls DVD. It contains a large number of routines culled from various magic videos and DVDs. If you can, get the Pat Page one too, have a study of them and get a feel for the sort of length that feels right to you.

Some of the routines on the former DVD are specifically designed for table-hopping.

EDIT: Actually...it's a well-known technique in film and drama to use laughs to put the audience at ease before moving in for the kill. Just a thought.

I think the sponge balls are one of the most entertaining tricks. As they are very easy for the spectator to follow because they are bright and very visual. Overall it is the simplicity of the sponge balls which i think makes them excellent and can suit close up, walk around, table hopping, street magic and even stage (depending on size).

Perhaps I have a cynical nature but I am not sure a magician should be trying to create "meaning" and "wonder". The only type of "wonder" this procedure usually results in is that the audience starts wondering when the silly b***** is going to stop boring everyone to death.

You are not there to create moments of "wonder". You are there to create moments of entertainment. Sure it doesn't do any harm to knock the eyes out of the punters and have them gasping. However you are far more likely to do this by being amusing, interesting, dramatic or exciting than you are trying to recreate some bilge that you heard in your acting classes.

I would highly recommend that the daft suggestion of eliminating the sponge balls should be immediately ignored. It is a modern classic for a reason. And the reason is that audiences scream with amazement and delight every time they see it. That reason alone is enough. I would agree that the trick is a little overdone and sometimes done very badly. However it still has some great life in it yet.

It is also a great trick for a restaurant worker providing he makes sure that the sponges don't end up in someone's soup. This happened to me once and the owner of the soup was the American ambassador. I have not been invited to the White House since to perform.

With regard to the running time of the trick it would depend a lot on the ability of the performer to entertain. Some people could do a 7 minute routine with the sponges and people would want more and with other people 15 seconds would be too long.

With regard to "emotional" responses I consider laughter and astonishment to be emotion enough. Trying to convince people that perhaps you might have real power is something that various daft mentalists try to do. I should leave it to them to create "meaning" and "moments of wonder". Good magicians (and mentalists) are far more concerned with entertainment and using psychological ploys to get audiences to react with astonishment at what you are doing.

If they are too busy pondering on the "meaning" of what you do they will be far too busy pondering to be entertained.

I should leave the philosophy to the philosophers.

If nobody throws anything and the cheque clears you should be happy enough.

first off I have a routine i have been working on it plus i just wanted to know for how long. Just a thought for you GoldFish magic is entertainment so it doesn't matter to much about the method but the presentation. Because in magic presentation is everything how you present it speaks alot. I know you just going to say children will like it but doesn't work in the professional world and adults will just assume sleight of hand. AJ82 thanks for telling me for how long is needed. Thanks you Part-Timer for give me advice on where to find more advice on routine like these but I have Mark Wilson Coarse of Magic and that the routine I am going to follow because I have spent money on lots of other things in magic well thanks for the help everyone.

You're welcome. I couldn't advise you myself, as I have never worked restaurants and never will, but I've always had a soft (:wink:) spot for sponges and bought that DVD recently. As it had routines of varying lengths, I thought that might be a great way for you to judge it.

Ultimately, the routine is yours and if you can come up with the answer on your own, so much the better.

Googoodolls, I apologise if I caused offense, I wasn't having a go. I obviously presumed wrongly about the current status of your routine, but I hope you can see where I'm coming from when I said it sounded like you were still working on it.

Part-Timer, you're right and maybe I came on a little strong, my bad. I realise Derren is only providing a model for performance, not the model and there are many parts to Absolute Magic that I disagree with, however I do agree in this instance. Therefore, I honestly think that Sponge Balls aren't congruent to strong magic. However, at the end of the day, we will argue in circles because it comes down to a matter of opinion.

As for the original question, I'll try and give my answer as best I can, but bear in mind that I don't do sponge balls professionally. In a tabble hopping situation your effects need to well paced, but should not drag on for too long for various reasons. One being that you may only have a short time with a table before you have to move on for one reason or another. Secondly, the audience didn't come to a restaurant to be entertained, they came to eat; you're a suprise bonus . So be sensitive to that fact in your choice of timing and effect. Finally, for all of these reasons you want to create the best atmosphere to get the best reaction in the time you have available. Therefore a long winded routine may detract from that. Personally, if I had to put a sponge ball routine together to do at tables it wouldn't last longer than a minute and a half to two minutes at most.

Goldfish you did not offend me one bit. I was just putting down my opinion on what i thought good magic is. But i know at the end of the day it is our own opinion of what we think is good magic. I really appreciate your help also it really does help and i fully understand how you could of assumed everything. well take care and thanks for all your guy's help.

Sponge Balls, A very interesting part of our magical world. Like Cards, Coins and TTs they are going to be linked to magic for a good long time yet, despite the trend that a growing number of magi seem to dislike them. I don't, I love the things. As mentioned already in this thread, Children enjoy them, they are versatile, easy to carry around and even a basic routine can impress.

Many people get hung up on the fact that, they are only ever linked to magicians. True to an extent but then, many other props that Magicians are happy to use fall into the same category. (I apologise for going off topic with this thread a little however, I do think it is a linked discussion and partly holds some relevance) My reply to those that worry about the use of Sponge Balls or do not want to be seen with them as a "sophisticated entertainer" is to actually give them a chance. I use sponge balls all the time; rarely do I ever complete a close up gig without using them for at least part of the event.

Sometimes I do worry if the use of them is appropriate or if it is going to "work" with the particular audience. One event that sticks in my mind was the last table of the night and the entire table was made up of men, not much older than myself. I was nervous about the use of Sponge Balls, despite my avocation of them as a good utility prop. At the end of my "normal" routines, I decided to take the plunge and do the routine anyway. I had very little to loose (save my reputation!) They really enjoyed it and found the whole thing hilarious (In a good way!) - When I left the event about 30 minutes later they were still talking about it.

They have their place. Some say that the place is only in the hands of a children’s entertainer, but to that I say, I am afraid I disagree. Yes, Children do like the sponge ball routines but others have and continue to react well to them. Old and young alike.

Versatility is the key when it comes to working with Sponge Balls. (You don't even have to call them Sponge Balls if it makes you feel better, just call them balls!) - When I did my Magic Circle exam, I opened with a Benson Bowl routine that used Sponge Balls. Was I worried that I would not come across as a serious and dedicated magi because I had used them? No. They work. There is very little explanation behind it, save the fact that they just do.

There are a multiple number of effects that can be done with them. Including:

Colour Changes - Multiple
Multiplying
Subtracting (not as boring as it sounds!)
Appearing
Disappearing
Diminishing in size
Growing in size
Changing in to other items
Matrix Effects
Sponge Ball through table
Fountain of sponge balls (think Silk fountain)
One in the hand/pocket effects

And what is more, most routines are able to be ended with the final phase (whatever you choose for that to be) happening in the hands of your audience. The reaction is stronger for magic in the hands anyway and sponge balls are no exception to the rule.

I was reading one of Mr Burgers books again recently and he says how much he hates sponge balls and finds them to have very little purpose or place in magic (I paraphrase - don't quote me on that exactly!) and even he has taken to doing a sponge ball routine with a kicker finish. Having seen it performed in a small theatre by a good friend of mine I can only say how well it worked for the audience of women, children and a few stony faced men (who were not stony faced at the climax of the effect!)

So, after my little championing of the little red balls (Please don't always use red! It makes colour changes very boring!) It brings me full circle and back to the original question of how long a sponge ball routine should last.

In some ways, when thinking of the routine I do so in the context of the Ambitious Card Trick - There is only so many times that card can appear on top of the deck before the collective audience loose interest and decide it would be much more entertaining to gouge their own eyeballs out with a pudding spoon (I exaggerate) - and Sponge Balls, I believe, should be worked on a similar principle.

Too long looses the impact. I think you need an opening phase (to start the effect and introduce the props, perhaps an appearance either in a flash or in any method preferred) and then gradually built the routine in strength. An opening phase, the first action, the second action and a finale. It is my personal view (and one that I can only say works for me personally, I do not want to claim to be some authority on sponge balls) that the routine should not last for longer than 5 phases. (With various gags and such thrown in)

The obvious exception to the rule is when it comes to children who can be continually impressed with the production and vanish of the same sponge ball, no matter how many times you do it.

Keep it short to increase maximum impact but not so short that the audience do not have time to get "into" the effect before it is over.

Just some other advantages to list:

Can be done silently (Language/Deafness etc, not a barrier)
Can be done in low light (Bright colours are available so even darkened rooms are not a problem)
Take up very little space for transit/storage
Balls are universally recognised
Examinable - Sponge is hard to gimmick (though there are some gimmicks out there)
No Age barriers - The young the older and the very old can appreciate them.
No huge set ups
No difficult resets - Obviously both of these depend on your routine.
Visual Magic - and I think that is their biggest advantage.

Some disadvantages:

May look silly playing around with little balls
Takes a lot of practice to get right (It is easy to do a sponge routine, but hard to do one well)
Pocket Space - As Eugene Burger says, you do need to dedicate a whole pocket if you want to perform them well. Not always practical.
Discolouration - They do change their colour quickly with the grease on hands, sweat and general grime (Can look unprofessional)
Shape they are not that easy to keep "round" when you are performing. Again, similar problem to the one above.

So, it may seem there are many problems and obstacles with them but with some dedication and some work you can make a brilliant, entertaining and magical routine with the little balls.

Some resources:

Duane Laflin - American Magician and really knows his stuff when it comes to Sponge Balls Magic (and silks for that matter) his DVD "Clever Sponge Ball Magic" contains some gems (Magic Circle Members - he is appearing in the Summer Schools teaching Sponge and Silk Magic - Check the Circular)

Mark Wilson’s Complete Course - Wilson's Routine is very solid and a very good basis for a Sponge Ball Routine.

Eugene Burger - A surprising entry on the list of resources, considering he dislikes them, but his book (Possibly "Mastering Close Up Magic) contains some very good thoughts about sponges and a killer routine.

Just my thoughts, hope it has been of some use.

I think other things which support the sponge balls are the fact that they are unusual - loads of spectators will have seen card, coin, rope trick even, sponges are quite unusual. Although they are unusual everyone can relaate to them in that we all know what sponge is and most of us have played a game with a ball. The "in the hands phase" is VERY powerfull and provokes an emotional reaction - think about it someone without going near you can put something in your hand which is tight shut - powerfull.


Reactions I have got include:

"(shouting) no way"

"That's impossible - it was in your hand I saw it"

"-scream- There were definately only 2!

EDIT:Finally, there was a review on here a while ago about a sponge ball DVD - look at all "the greats of magic" on that DVD who use sponge balls, Sam's example of Mark Wilson is a good one.

Great post Sam some really good points made, cheers.

GoldFish wrote:Part-Timer, you're right and maybe I came on a little strong, my bad. I realise Derren is only providing a model for performance, not the model and there are many parts to Absolute Magic that I disagree with, however I do agree in this instance. Therefore, I honestly think that Sponge Balls aren't congruent to strong magic.

It is definitely a matter of opinion. Sponge balls are not going to provide the strongest magic out there. It's not the same as flying 'without wires' or telling them the name of their grandmother.

However, I think that, because the magic happens in spectators' hands, they are still pretty strong; more so than a signed playing card, say, especially if the spectator doesn't get to keep it afterwards.

That was a great post Sam and you referred to Burger. The DVD I mentioned features his sponge ball routine and he even goes on to talk about how ambivalent he is on the subject. From an artistic point of view, he doesn't like them, but audiences love seeing those little balls appear and disappear.

The Goshman routine on the 'World's Greatest Magic' DVD is well-suited to adults (if you see it, you'll understand what I mean) and not a ding-dong in sight. I'm pretty sure the props are available from Cards4Magic.