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I need a way to force some objects. Let's say you have 25 objects, and you need to force 4 of them. All the objects are different.

I have been thinking of using a change bag, but I can't find one that doesn't look too obvious magically.

Anyone have any ideas?

Unfortunately I lost my first, well worded response, so we'll try again...

I think you're over-complicating the routine and more important, you are leaning way too much on the same principle which will weaken the effect in the long run.

If I were you (and not knowing the actual routine or effect you're after I'm doing some assumption) I'd look at using a handful of techniques including the classic "fill in the blank" (Swami or PW) course of action, maybe a one ahead or behind sequence and other "switch" type methods like the Banachek portfolio, a Himber wallet type arrangement, Ted Lesley's TELEPORT Envelopes, etc. But I will also remind you of a little something when it comes to the creation & performance of mentalism (this is for everyone's benefit, you're just lucky enough to be the person that opened the door of opportunity to it.)

The Principia of Mentalism
{a.k.a. Bob Cassidy 101}

1. Plausibility Depends On Context (Or, As Annemann Asked, "What Would A Real Mindreader Do?")

2. If Your Only Theory Is Trickery A Mentalist You'll Never Be

3. No Effect Is Plausible If The Context Is Wrong. Conversely, Anything Is Plausible In The Right Context. The Trick Is Figuring Out Which Is Which.

4. If More Than One Subtlety Is At Work, Your Method Is Well Concealed.

5. Varying Your Methods Keeps You One Step Ahead Of The Magic Boys

6. To Err Is Human, It Makes Us Seem Real, But Err at the End – You’ll Look like a Schlemiel.

7. It's Not What You Take With You That Counts, It's What You Leave Behind

8. A Mentalist's Primary Product Is His Name And Personality. The Effects Should Merely Serve To Reinforce His Image And Reputation.

9. Reputations Are Not Made By What You Do. They Are Made By What People BELIEVE You Can Do.

10. If Your Initial Claims Are Plausible, Your Later Claims Will Be Far Easier To Accept.

11. Art Requires Attention To Detail

12. What's Simple Isn't Always Good, But What's Good Is Almost Always Simple.

13. If Charismatic You Would Be Act Enthusiastically

14. The More Complex A Routine, The Less "Psychic" It Looks. That's The Difference Between Mentalism And "Mental Magic.".

15. If Someone Else You Try To Be, You're Condemned To Mediocrity.

16. The Best Way To Avoid Detection Is To Practice Effective Misdirection.

17. The Performer Who Is Wise Knows How To Improvise -
...And All That Jazz.

18. Out Of Mistakes, Miracles Are Born.

19. Anticipate The Inevitable…
…Murphy Was Right.

20." Trust No One"

Though presented with a sense of humor I'm confident you will likewise get the point(s) being made here and even catch a glimpse as to where some of my thinking comes from

For more information on this check out DVD entitled BOB CASSIDY'S MENTALISM I can assure you that it will be one of the best investments you've ever made in this arena.

Very interesting answer, Craig. I love Bob's way of putting things. I also think that you might be right and a force isn't the way to go. However, it's hard to be sure, because we don't know exactly what Rune has in mind.

What exactly do you need to force? Are these things like stamps or postcards, where the images are all different, or really different objects, like the routine Derren Brown did with Martin Kemp? If you don't know it, there were a hundred items (maybe more) left in rows in the room. There was a gumball machine (I think), a lamp and many other things. A whisk was chosen in the end.

The obvious answer, if you must force, is equivoque. However, without specifics, it's hard to be sure.

I hashed out some ideas based on equivoque and PMed him with them and I think it will work out. It is a bit more indepth than that... but

1011

...a tiny thing to suggest is a 'kind of' lottery...pieces of paper plus swami should get you the results needed if you know what i mean...

202 forces by Theo Annemann too is worth a look, very nice small booklet...

You could do a variation of the pateo force, but instead of you and the spectator selecting 2 items, one to be eliminated by the other, you select five and carry out the force using the same method as you normally would, until four objects remain.

I've got a trick where I need to force 2 out of 10 possible object. The best way I've found to do this is to use cards. Number the objects from 1 to 10 and get them to pick a card. It's dead easy to force two cards on them and therefore the two objects. I've tried various ways but always found this the best. Perhaps you could try a similar method?

On Sankey's "22 Blows to the head" he has a mentalism clip in which a list of items are printed on a long peice of paper.....he runs the sizzors over the paper until someone says stop, cuts there, and force complete....do you know what I am talking about? It would seem to me (depending on what exactly you are doing) you could make up four seperate lists and repeat this four times, to select the four items.....

PM if you need me to clear up the info in the post.....

There's two methods I'd use...

One of which relies on a very simple principle and involves having numbered cards with each object on. The spectator is invited to put the objects on cards... say, numbered from 1 to 25. Each object is now randomly assigned to a number by the spectator.

Now you're free to use a much easier approach—you force certain NUMBERS instead of certain objects. i.e. if the four objects are on no's 3, 4, 15 and 20, you need to somehow get these choices force.

I'd have a deck of blank faced cards, 25 of them, which are simply dupes of the other numbered cards. As you spread through and 'randomly' shuffle them, simply cull the four forces to face.

Then, spread the cards in your hand and ask for four to be selected. Use Vernon's addition move to swap the four selections for the force cards. Voila—a 'double' randomness with a clever twist.

Or... you could simply use another fiendish method...

25 objects, four need forcing... if they are small, this is a doddle.

Get two LARGE ziplock bags, that are totally transparent. Create a 'forcing bag' out of the two by having two inner compartments... simply cut one of the bags so you get the full side, discarding the other side and the ziplock. Place this inside the other bag (you'll probably need to trim it to make it a tad smaller) and seal the edges. This can be done with a new gadget I've discovered by JML (Woolworths) which is for re-sealing freezer bags.

Once you have your double compartment bag, you're set.

IN THE PRESENCE OF THE SPECTATOR...
Grab a handful of RANDOM objects (not a force one) and place them into the bag in ONE SIDE. Now, switch flaps, and throw in a FORCE object. Put a few more random non-forces in the other side, and so on.

The force objects are in ONE side of the bag, the others are separate.

I've used this method to force coins before. No reason it shouldn't work with other objects.

Also, there's the famous 'Mona Lisa Jigsaw' effect from the Flicking Fingers DVD, which utilises a similar force.