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Not only do flourishes make the routine more visually entertaining, they can also be used as destractions. If you are spinning a card in your right hand, everyone will be watching that and not what you are doing with your left hand.

I shall now continue with my sermon:

Anyway, back to flourishes. The second category of flourish is a more
dangerous one. That is, a flourishy type of revelation at the end of
the trick.This is dangerous because you are doing the flourish,
emphasising your skill DURING the trick. These fancy revelations are more eye pleasing than spectacular but they are still dangerous because you are throwing your skill at people. I do quite a few of these revelations but I am careful to do them in moderation. Too much salt on a meal is not a good thing. A little can go a long way.

An exception is Jerry Andrus. I saw him perform on Black and White
British T.V.40 or so years ago. (By the way, just to inflame people a
little bit I wish to announce that I was the first magician to appear
on colour T.V. in Britain.)Andrus was terrific. He had quite a memorable effect on me at the time. His magic broke my rule, though. It was all eye-pleasing flourishy revelations. All of it. No moderation as I am advising you to do now.

I guess there are always exceptions that prove the rule. One thing I will say, though is he performed very slowly in a dead pan way. I think the
moral of this is that the more flourishy your handling the slower you
should possibly go so as not to burden youself further with unnecessary lack of naturalness.

I believe true art holds the mirror to nature. If you perform as if the devil were at your heels with great rapidity you will tend to arouse people's suspicions. There are advantages in flourishes but there is no advantage at working at breakneck speed. That encourages dilution of effect without any advantage whatsoever.

Finally, the last category is what I think got Vernon's goat. It kind
of gets mine too. The most dangerous category of all. Flourishy
handling IN THE MIDDLE OR AT THE BEGINNING OF THE TRICK. This tends to be all the rage nowadays and is quite awful.It can be done, I believe but very, very rarely. Quite possibly it should not be done at all.

A flourish every second just to show how clever the performer is. Bloody
stupid. All the young magicians do it and it's so, so wrong. You are
literally throwing your skill at your audience.Without shame or guilt.
At least, I used to feel guilty using flourishes; I knew it wasn't
100% right. You see if you emphasise your skill too much you are a juggler and a very bad one at that. All this flipping around without rhyme or reason dilutes, dilutes and dilutes the magic to a terrible degree.I'm not saying don't use flourishes. I'm saying use them intelligently.

There are two schools of card magic. There is the "look how clever I am " school of magic and the "art that hides art" school. I one hundred percent guarantee that the latter is more powerful than the former.

I am dead serious about the above.This is a long, long message
but a very important one. And remember, I do know what I am talking
about.


I AM Mark Lewis after all...................

I'm not saying don't use flourishes. I'm saying use them intelligently.

That clears it up for me... Thanks again.

JimSardonic wrote:I'm a bit surprised that there's not a single person in here who "supports" them, for lack of a better word.

I love flourishes!

Anyways... as Jerry Cestkowski says: " I would rather see a gorilla deal seconds out of a stack of flapjacks with its toes than a kid doing the "five card repeat" effect".

I always interlace magic with flourishes and people say that I'm quick with my hands so I can do "magic". I have absolutely no problem with that. In fact, sometimes, I'll show them a top palm in slow motion and say that's how I do an ambitious card effect. Then I just do a DL and make it appear so fast that they're more impressed than before.

Steve

stevebo wrote:I always interlace magic with flourishes and people say that I'm quick with my hands so I can do "magic".

Isn't that a bit of a contradiction? I guess it's a shame that to a lot of our audiences sleight of hand is magic.

stevebo, the whole point of using sleights is that they do not even know that you are.
If people just think you are good with your hands it misses the point of the magic by a long shot.
I think this is the main argument for not using flourishes and if so in moderation, one with which I am inclined to agree.

I have said it before, I would rather be seen to handle cards the same as anyone else with maybe the odd spring or charlier thrown in every now and then, even dropping cards on occasion. Then when the most unbelievable thing happens either right in front of a spec or even in their own hands, their disbelief is far stronger than if I had been sybilling constantly.
I even pass false comment on my own lack of skill with the cards.
The real magic is in the eyes of the spec at the conclusion of an effect, rather than them merely saying that I'm a good finger twiddler. They should not know this.

Mark Lewis wrote:A flourish every second just to show how clever the performer is. Bloody
stupid. All the young magicians do it and it's so, so wrong. You are
literally throwing your skill at your audience.Without shame or guilt.

Totally!
It is your persona that they should remember from your performance no matter how low key, the magic can in many cases speak for itself

That said, vapour is a fun flourish to do although I do not use it all the time and if I do, towards the end of a routine.

Stevebo. I love flourishes too but they should be used intelligently and in moderation. They can be addictive I know but this very addiction can be harmful to your effect upon the audience. If you do too much of this sort of thing and at the wrong time you can actually dilute the effect of your magic.

I would recommend to you the wise words of Jean Hugard/Frederick Braue which I hereby quote:

"used in moderation they are a decided asset to the card conjurer, but when carried to extrem lengths they defeat the very object that the magician should always have in mind, namel, that the effects he produces are done by magic and not by skill. A series of brilliant flourishes leaves only the impression of juggling skill on the minds of the onlookers, and the performer's feats are dismissed by them with the remark, "he's clever with his hands"

Precisely the reaction that you seem to be so proud of. I would venture to suggest that you will prefer the more vociferous reaction you will undoubtedly receive once you learn to moderate your approach.

I shall quote Hugard/Braue again:

"There are two classes of card conjurers. One class takes every opportunity of parading dexterity by using flashy flourishes and show shuffles throughout their performance, whereas the other class handles the cards jus as any card player would-indeed, sometimes affecting a little clumsiness by dropping a card or the like.

In the first case the reaction of the onlookers is that they are not surprised by the results of the tricks, since the "quickness" of the performer's hands has literally been thrown at them. His work is dismissed with the remark "he's clever with his hands" and forgotten almost at once.

In the second case, when the spectators see the cards handled with perfect fiarness and without sleight of hand, as they think, then the results simply seem to happen of their own accord. The magician's feats thereafter make a lasting impression on the minds of the onlookers and will be seen by them with pleasure over and over again."

I would study the above quotes most carefully and decide which path you want to follow. I tend to take the middle road. I do the flourishes but take into account the sage remarks above particularly the shrewd analysis of the audience reaction when too much flamboyance is apparent.

Hi, flourishes have always been a hot topic for magicians and for me and EVERYBODY (those who love flourishes and those who don´t) think in the same way. I guess I have a totally diferent point of view and I hope you like it

Spectators don´t think and don´t apreciate all them in the same way, I mean there are a few that love the "pure magic", there other that like "comedy magic", there are others that like "fancy sleights".
So the question is HOW ON EARTH ARE WE GONNA SATIFIE THEM ALL?
The answer is simple WE JUST CAN´T.
So what are we gonna do? my opinion is, we have to do what makes us happy and present that in an entertining way for the people.

I like flourishes a bit, I like magic and I do love Xtreme Card Manipulation XCM (note: XCM is not flourishes). So I´m gonna do what I want but having always in mind that I have to entertain. Who cares if I´m a juggler or if I have real magical powers to suppend people disdelief. The thing is to entertain people being happy with myself.

And if you are interested on how I present my stuff here it is:
I have magical routines where I do magic with no XCM at all and very little flourishes. This way I don´t dilute the magic effects, I don´t show off like an idiot saying "watch me" but I do show that I´m not a begginer with no skill at all.
And on the other hand I have XCM routines where I DO NOT perform any single magic trick and I DO NOT perform repetitive flourishes like sybils.
So I have the two areas very separated and I have strong reactions from both kind of performances.

And one more last thought (please I don´t want to offend anybody here).
I guess is good to have own criteria so we have to think for ourselves ignoring influences from others so we DON´T have to think if Dai Vernon is looking at us from above. I´m saying this because that kind of thoughts will not allow us to think and will guide us in the way other people want.
So we have to go in the way that makes US happy.

Thanks for reading
I hope this helps in some way
Peace

There were so many good points (especially made by Mark) that I may be repeating some things here but I wanted to add my voice to this topic.

In the priginal post, LesPaul stated that the effects s/he presented are meant to be believed to have been accomplished by magic. In that case, there is really no place for flourishes. The inclusion of flourishes indicate skill that may be assumed (correctly) to be the cause of the effects. Again, if the goal is to leave the audience believing that the effects were caused by magic, flourishes would be contray to the goal of the performer. If one is doing an act where magic is never mentioned (say a gambling routine), or where it is mentioned but not meant to be believed, then flourishes are fine. The performer wants the audience to know that the effects were accomplished by skill and the inclusion of flourishes reinforce that perception.

Now, they can be overdone and overshadow the effects (as previously stated) and the audence will be left remembering the flourishes and not the magic. XCM videos actually warn against the combination of XCM and magic and I believe that they should be mixed carefully.

I´m not agree with that sorry. XCM and magic MUST NOT be combined in any way. There are two points of view:

1) The most common thought is that flourishes or XCM (they are not the samething) will dilute magic.
Ok thats fine but not everybody thinks in the same way. Some will think "he is very skilfull so that´s how he found my card" and some others will say "WHAT THE ... did you see that, I cannot believe it, damn he is very skillful WOW"

2) Now the 2nd point of view is kinda new for me, and it´s something I share with a lot of "thinkers". Magic and XCM MUST NOT be combined NOT because the trick is less magical but because XCM is something greater so it has no comparison. Is like a motorcicle (XCM) against a simple boy using a bicicle lol

I don´t want to offend anybody but I believe that every magician has to have their own criteria

Peace

Mefistofeles wrote:Ok thats fine but not everybody thinks in the same way. Some will think "he is very skilfull so that´s how he found my card" and some others will say "WHAT THE ... did you see that, I cannot believe it, damn he is very skillful WOW"

2) Now the 2nd point of view is kinda new for me, and it´s something I share with a lot of "thinkers". Magic and XCM MUST NOT be combined NOT because the trick is less magical but because XCM is something greater so it has no comparison. Is like a motorcicle (XCM) against a simple boy using a bicicle lol

I have to disagree with that. In making that statement you are making the assumption that XCM is an artform above magic, when I don't believe that it is. I think if you gave any person the choice as to what they would rather watch for an hour, some guy fling some cards about or a magician, they would choose the magician. Why? Because of the sustainable entertainment factor.

XCM takes skill could be considered an artform I guess, but I don't believe anything hits harder than a good piece of magic.

Mefistofeles wrote:2) Now the 2nd point of view is kinda new for me, and it´s something I share with a lot of "thinkers". Magic and XCM MUST NOT be combined NOT because the trick is less magical but because XCM is something greater so it has no comparison. Is like a motorcicle (XCM) against a simple boy using a bicicle lol

I'm not offended, but your argument here is confused.

XCM is either magic or it is not. I think everyone is in agreement that it's pretty much a display of skill and not magical of itself.

As such, it's not like comparing a motorcycle with a bicycle, because the two things are totally different. It's like saying that juggling is greater than magic. That may be your opinion, but stating it as a fact just makes you look biased.

personally i dont do flourishes...probably cos i can't do 'em...

i cant even do a one handed fan after about four years of card work...a pressure fan is no problem, but that's about it...

i can charlier well, and that spinning three way octopus cut is the only one i can do...it does look quite pretty, but...nah they're not for me to use...

i just want to handle a deck of cards naturally, no flashiness, no flourishes, nothing...just straight forward handling...

Well.. during my time as a part time magician, I look back and I actually realise that I don't any flourishes within my routines.

I am always pro for flourishes because of one main reason:
They improve your card handling tenfold!
Also, they are great fun to do in your spare time!

I think the only flourish I almost always do in my routines, especially ACR, is the card piroutte. Just something fancy . Oh, and also the Hot Shot Cut but that's more of a card revelation.

Steve

Cardza there is something I disagree.
If you ask to the audience "What do you prefer, magic or XCM?", they will say magic because they do not know what XCM is and they might asociate that with juggling which is not.
This question is similar to say "Do you think a magician can make you choose the card he wants?" (that would be the force lol)

I mean that with that kind of questions the answer is served.
I guess the audience should see a magic routine and then a XCM routine and let them decide what they do prefer without saying anything.
I´m sure their answers will be very different from person to person.
And that´s when I say that is impossible to create something that satisfie everybody.
That´s when I´m trying be as democratic as possible and say that everybody (magicians) has to think by THEIR OWN.
Think to your self "What brings me more fun?"
Then, perform that "thing" in order (trying) to entertein audiences as well.

I mean if I think that my performance has to be magical ONLY without sleights I´M JUST LIMITING MY CREATIVITY because I´m not allowing my self to explore other areas. And this thought should to be applied to everything not just XCM and magic but also to modify existing tricks, techniques, etc.

I like magic and XCM (XCM is not magic, is not flourishes, is not sybils, is an indepent art with cards) but I DO NOT combine them, I have I routine for each thing.
Anyway, sorry if I contradict to my other posts, I´m not saying "Hey, you should do the same thing", I´m saying that would be great to experiment with different things.
If you are not agree doing new stuff then you can always return, so there is nothing to lose.

Give it a try.
Sorry if this is too long. Thanks for reading

PD: one more last thing if you have doubts about XCM and juggling here is an example of "CARD JUGGLING" lol
http://flourishman.com/1juggleWMV.wmv