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Hi just wrote a reveiw on a very old trick which I have had for some time, you can veiw it in the reveiws section. It posed a very interesting question for me, and to be honest I just wanted to try my hand a writting a reveiw. My reveiw was SLYDINI'S KNOTTED SILKS, not a very brilient trick, but in the reveiw I had to be honest and state that sometimes this trick does not always work and so the audience win and not the magician.
Has anyone out there got any other examples of this being an accepted part of a trick?
If you read my reveiw you will see that the audience quite like winning, and that if it is the middle of your show your other routines work so you still end up winning the match as it were, your kind thoughts on the subject would be appreciated.

Well, I think if you look at magic in terms of the magician 'winning' or 'failing' then you're looking at magic in the wrong way, from the wrong perspective. This attitude is akin to that of a trickster - true magic does not aim to trick the audience but to share with them a sense of wonder.

If I were seeing a paid show for example then I would not expect to see a magician fluff up his effects, but then that depends on who I was seeing. If however he was being a smart ass then I would be quietly pleased to see him mess up a piece of magic.

An air of shared wonder - not of superiority - should be the one cultivated in a magic or mentalism show, and in this sense if the audience like the magician or mentalist then they want to be entertained. It is only if they take a disliking to the guy or gal that they would be likely to want to see him mess up.

It all depends on the setting. If you're a professional doing a show then it is by no means alright to mess up if you're a friendly performer. In a casual performance it's more acceptable, but there should not be the need there if you see what I mean.

I don't think its quite what you meant(and I don't think I know that particular trick), but a lot of tricks you make out your going to do one thing but when that doesn't work you do something totally unexpected... It's a form of misdirection so spectators don't know what they might be looking for, but sometimes it may seem that the magician has failed. Or some tricks can be presented as though the 'magic' is performed by the spectator themselves. As long as the magic 'happens' though, whether 'done' by you or them, surely thats all that matters...

Thanks for your reply,
perhaps I used the wrong phrase when I used winning or losing,
as a kids magician i tend to use magician in trouble as a way of taking away the air of superiority mentioned in your reply.
With your veiws on messing up, some tricks like the slydini silks are sometimes imposible to get out of even for pro's and so as pointed out by your e-mail i guess it does come down to personality as to wether you get away with it.
I do not belive for a minute that messing up by showing how an effect is done is in any way acceptable, or messing up on an effect which is 100% reliable if practised enough, and if the silks are used as a stand alone effect then the audience would indeed feel let down by a very week ending if they went wrong(hence needing a strong personality to get out of it) but dose this non 100% safe trick mean it should be discarded? or should we just be carefull how we use it?
Again in kids magic I allow my tricks to go wrong and then the kid makes them go right and he gets the applause not I. The kids seem to love the "one over the magician" feel but still enjoy the show as they have had a fun time.
Do we as adults lose this ability as an audience, I think you hint that this is the case and I think you may be right. Again in the case of the silks this is getting a bit away from the point, but as someone relativly new to magic it is performance tips I crave.
Remember one of the funniest guys in the world made his money from tricks going wrong (tommy cooper) but we watched him fail and loved it, although this is moving slightly away from the point.
Perhaps I should narrow down my question a bit.
Would other people use a trick like sly's silks even though they are not 100% safe? and are there other non 100% safe tricks out there we should worry or not worry about?
Your phrase "an air of shared wonder" is definatly something I shall strive for. Thank you:)

Well I see this win/lose situation in 2 different ways.

The first is when you let the spectator think they are right and you have apparently screwed up, but it is part of the effect and it leads into a bigger revelation.

The second is from a risk kind of effect, such as a psychological force in which there is a chance that you could lose and the spectator wins.

From where I see it, I think the spectator needs to win sometime, so they aren't always the sucker, no-one likes to be the loser.

For those who do not know the trick, this is what should happen
The silks are tied in a knot by spectators, the knot is made tight, and then dissapears.
And this is what can go wrong.
On occasion the knot cannot be undone(dissolved), there are a couple of get outs you can use to make the knot dissapear and then the trick works but is not as clean
But sometimes their is absolutely no way the knot will ever come undone and the silks HAVE to be taken appart at home which can take several minutes. (the guy in the dvd cuts them with sissors and admits he's beat for an honest upbeat and slightly funny ending) but it is obviouse the trick has failed by this point.
This is what I mean by a not 100% trick
Sorry I am new to chat sites I hope this clarifies my question a bit more

Ah ok then I get you now! I see what you mean. Slydini Silks done properly can be a beautiful thing to witness. If you don't mind the possiblity of it going wrong then I would say by all means perform it. I think it's easier with an audience of children as you can turn it in to a daft little thing, but with an audience of adults a simple admittance that you messed up could be quite well-received. As Fogel said - but this is more to do with mentalism now - if you don't know, if a peek or whatever has gone wrong - then simply tell them that you don't know.

A lot of mentalists's acts consist of material which is not always surefire. Yet for this very reason true miracles can be produced and you can give your audience something so more real that way. Doesn't exactly apply to magic in quite the same way, but still. I don't own the Silks so do not know how likely the chances of error are - but if you work at it, and try and cover any failings as best as possible and if that doesn't work own up, then risking it for such a beautiful effect would be worth it IMO.

Your point about Tommy Cooper is valid, but remember - people went to see him for that reason .

Good question! Hopefully these posts will help you to find an answer .

thanks cardza
turning this question on its head,
your bringing up mentalism reminded me of something in corrindas 13 steps
two ladies I belive were fooling esp scientists with their abilitys
they had a 100% trick, but they chose not to be 100%, they chose to fail because it gave them more credibilty as mind readers.
I am sure you know of this, and I'm sure the great Fogel did not deliberatly get stuff wrong but do you think that some people watch us magicians hoping to see us fail, I certainly get that feeling all be it from a very small number of people.

Oh absolutely. For whatever reasons, some people just do not want to be entertained or mystified, but they come with the gig and you just have do as best you can. But mess up for them and they'll just laugh right at you.

With mentalism, especially under test circumstances, misses circumvent the logical way a magican thinks - to be right everytime - and so in doing so suggest that this person is genuine - after all, why would they deliberately miss? Etc. etc.

Again, great thread!

I know you've kind of wrapped this one up, but in answer to "Should magicians always win?" I'd say it depends on the circumstances and the type of character you portray - if you're a hapless fellow who is made to look foolish by magic, then winning is a no-no from the start. If, however, you portray yourself as a hero in your effects - maybe telling a story that unfoldsand ends with you 'saving the day' with magic, then yes, you must win - unless, of course, you need to build some suspense, when a minor loss will probably not hurt.

I think we've decided that's not what you asked, but it's an extremely interesting point, and one I'm sure is covered in Darwin Ortiz' book, "Strong Magic." I've got it with me here, but can't find the exact reference.

Looking at what the original post actually meant, in that should the magician's effect always work, then I think you need to look at it from the view of the spectator. Mentalism aside, where misses can help provide some realism to the show, conjuring effects I think should always work, from a spectator's point of view. You might know that Slydini's Silks doesn't work 100% of the time, but the audience doesn't. In this case, why not have a change bag with duplicate silks in nearby, with which you can quite easily swap for the permanently knotted set. The technical aspect of the original effect may not have worked, but the spectators will be none the wiser, and you can produce an extreme climax with maybe a giant silk made up of the original colours.

If your effect is hit-and-miss, for whatever reason, then give yourself an out.

Wow, I've not felt this helpful on TalkMagic in months!

Again, great thread!

Thanks Zack for pointing out that we can change (or rather should change) the routines that we buy.
Feeling foolish that one answer to the question was so blooming obvious
Have already come up with two endings other than yours, and of coarse the added plus is that if any spectator remembers the ending they get a nice suprise
I change endings all the time in my kids show as most kids see the same tricks at every magic show they go to. Some look board or shout out the ending
thanks again
Logging out to make an out to get me out if my magic goes out

connor o'connor wrote:Has anyone out there got any other examples of this being an accepted part of a trick?

Some of my homebrew mentalism uses statistical analysis, so it can't logically work all the time. Because of that, I present these tricks as experiments to test a developing ability, rather than as a display of mastery. Sometimes, I'll even let the spectator have a go using their "intuition" to let them see just how difficult the experiment is before I have a go. They have no chance, but I have plenty.