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I recently performed a few slieghts and trick for a few friends at a party which was ok but one of them then went out and tried to get his hands on how to do them and he told me he got them from P2P file sharing programs and said there was lot of them. Even tricks like Mindbender, which he then did. Im not sure which file sharing program he used but I think if magic is being shared like this i could mean the end of it as an entertainment art and more of a parlour trick situation. I hope Ellusionist and Penguin sue / stop these file sharing scum who are ruining it for the rest of us.

Though at first glance, this appears to be the correct forum for this post... it isn't. But while it is waiting to be moved...

I fully agree with you, but you have to realize that with magic it is not what you know in technique or even skill. Performance and showmanship will make a huge difference. You will have many people out there that know how to do a certain trick but will be completely ignorant on how to perform it very well. I have personally performed tricks to magicians using very basic sleights and they had no clue. I know many other magicians capable of doing this as well. Beyond that, there is a whole world of information that is NOT out there in the p2p networks. And even if it were to ever unfortunately be leaked on there... the types that would download it would read it only for it to ultimately go over their heads or never be practiced to the extent that it will be really understood.

I know a guy who sells info products who made a very good point. If you buy a cd with an hours worth of information for $2, you will maybe skip th rough it or listen to it once and move on. But if you spend $200 on that hour of information, you are going to listen to every second of it. And then some.

That is why I support people like Kenton Knepper. His products have been said to be "too expensive" or "over priced". I disagree. I wish they cost more. Everything I have bought from him has been well worth the money. Because after investing that much money, I felt obligated to invest that much time into learning and using it. And I learned all the more because of it.

Sure there will be more half-assed magicians out there. But that is just more people for you to blow out of the water. Can't you remember a time when you were learning, performing a trick, and you met someone who was your senior in skill and he blew you away, doing much the same you were doing yourself?

That to me can be just as magical.

i1011i wrote:... but you have to realize that with magic it is not what you know in technique or even skill. Performance and showmanship will make a huge difference.

I agree with i1011i. In a lot of cases, stage illusions are a perfect example of this point. Most (the gross generalization is necessary for the point) large stage illusions are accomplished by some mechnical device, or machine. In theory, anyone who purchases or builds such a device can perform the illusion. What makes large stage illusions work, and entertaining, is the performer's showmanship. The large stage illusions are (again, gross generalization to help make the point) about 10% technical skill (meaning sleight of hand) and 90% acting. It is the acting/showmanship that turns a mechanical device into an unforgettable experience fo the audience.

Interesting points from all but as one of the "victims" of these "file share" groups (as in, a contributor to the industry that gets ripped-off via said sources and their patrons) I do have to point out that most of the low life's that get their material from such outlets do so for the sake of ego... the ability to say "oh, I know that one."

Before life got in the way of my plans and forced me into this darker role of being a Surrealists I was one of those guys pushing around the big funny looking boxes that cause wierd things to happen to young hapless ladies. I can assure you all that the idea Kolisar was trying to get across is quite accurate; owning a big illusion does not mean you can present it in a manner that is mesmerizing and memorable... then again, knowing about the Center Tear and being able to do it in a way that detours the logic centers of thought (e.g. making the technique "invisible") is light-years apart from what we will see most do upon exploiting said technique.

Knowing the basic ideas and techniques surrounding an effect has surprisingly little to do with our ability to create "Magic" -- you need no props or tricks to be a magician -- to exploit the recesses of your patron's imaginations and invoke fantasiful arrays of thought and sensation that simply consume... THAT'S MAGIC! It is done daily by actors, orators and even teachers in the public classrooms.

When we learn to allow our words, our physical expression, even our manner of presence to become the instruments via which enchantment is given life, it is at that instant that we really do begin to become true magicians. If we but invested a tenth of the energy we sock into learning the lattest new bit everyone is talking about or perfecting a double-lift or bottom deal... if we transfered that little bit of added effort into our conscious acts of communication the quality of the technique could be as crude as a lump of coal is when compared to the rendered diamond.

Don't laugh at such a statement, look at the films of the past masters of who were known for their showmanship; Goshman, Kalanag, Richiardi, Shamada all held exceptional command of their audiences but in certain instances, their techniques were less than poor... Kalanag's subby fingers making manipulation nearly impossible and yet, via his personality and just a bit of logic his billiard ball routine became a classic. Albert Goshman's brass and effective use of "presence" allowed him to get away with some of the boldest most sloppy moves on earth and no one ever complained simply because he was enchanting!

This is what magic is guys, stop focusing on the tricks and techniques and learn how to be enchanting, charismatic, charming and aware. Learn how to guide your audiences along an amazing journey and in so doing, you will discover just how little in way of techniques and devices are really needed in this wonderful world.

killerfroggy wrote:I recently performed a few slieghts and trick for a few friends at a party which was ok but one of them then went out and tried to get his hands on how to do them and he told me he got them from P2P file sharing programs and said there was lot of them. Even tricks like Mindbender, which he then did. Im not sure which file sharing program he used but I think if magic is being shared like this i could mean the end of it as an entertainment art and more of a parlour trick situation. I hope Ellusionist and Penguin sue / stop these file sharing scum who are ruining it for the rest of us.

What interests me about this is how do people know what to look up? I never tell people the names of any tricks or sleights, and if you don't tell them they rarely ask. We should be careful when newbies come here and up front ask the name of the trick for that reason.

Also, this is a perfect example of why it's vital when you get a new trick to strip it down to its basis and make it your own, with your own handling and patter. For example, I recently bought Strange Travellers. It's a great trick as it is, but it's been on the slab for nearly a month while I get my own handling together so that it fits in with my style. It will bear only a passing resemblance to the thing in the Blaine special.

One of my mates did the same, after me performing a card trick to him he went and tried to find out how to do it. He then did find out, and found loads more and started trying to perform other tricks such as Sinful, BUT RUINING IT as he hadn't practised. This then revealed the trick to somebody else, and it just goes on. Every sort of hobby i have had others try to copy. I thought when i started magic that nobody else does it and i really enjoy it. After i showed people some tricks, i was told how good they were, sure. But after a few days and a 'search on limewire' people were telling me they have all of these tricks too.

That is one reason why i like tricks that envolve some sort of gimmick, they cannot be found on P2P programs and MUST be bought in order to work. it is not like you can download the time machine watch.

It's a good reason and incentive to develop a lot of your own material too, which is something I'm doing more and more now.

As usual the elders have already made all the salient points, but I'd like to add a little something:

All you need is a good working knowledge of misdirection, some palming ability and boldness in equal measure and you can create amazing stuff on the spot. I'm incorporating more and more of this sort of thing into my magic because it's so powerful and specific tricks can't be downloaded off Kazar.

Tomo has a good point too in that specs shouldn't really know what to search for. Sure they could google 'coin in can' and find out about Sinful then download it, but there are loads of great tricks that you could only find if you knew pretty specifically what to look for. Like Red Hot Mama for example, well until that Youtube vid went around the world twice.

Actually bronz, I just ran a search with of a generic description of a fairly well-known effect and was disgusted to find that at the top of the list was a link to a video showing how it was done - a direct copy from the video it was originally on!

I asked the guy tonight how he found out about the tricks and he told me first off he googled magic and clicked on the ellusionist website then tried searching on ********** and he then downloaded everything he could find. I am disgusted at the amount of stuff he told me was on there and hopefully discouraged him from doing it again. I have only been doing this for a few months and have bought everything i own with my own cash. The people that developed these wonders deserve the money and the credit and i hope the owners comedown hard on anyone they find doing this deplorable act.

This kind if thing is becoming more common and, under the guise of freedom of information for all who have access, there's no way of stopping it. The only way to prevent your effects and routines from being stolen like this is to not write them down or sell/distribute them in the first place. Sad isn't it?

I think youtube is more of a threat with the "Helpful Tutorials", but this doesn't sound good either.