talkmagic.co.uk

Hi guys,

I'm new to the forum and have a questions that I couldn't find answered anywhere else on here (have tried multiple search queries).

My question is, what are your views on the ethics of learning a trick by close study of promotional footage?

For example: By watching Wayne Houchin's 'Coin in a Soda Can' promotional trailer (on ellusionist and youtube), I was able to work out exactly how the trick is done (at least I think I have - my routine looks very similar to Criss Angel's/Wayne Houchin's routine, so much so that I think I must have worked it out).

Now would it be in any way unethical to take this out and perform it for people?

Obviouslt blatant exposure should be strongly discouraged, but if the illusion can be learnt just by studying promotional footage, should this practice also be discouraged?

My view is that this is a valid way of learning illusions without purchasing the DVDs, but others may disagree, I don't know.

Any thoughts?

Cestom

Cestom wrote:My view is that this is a valid way of learning illusions without purchasing the DVDs, but others may disagree, I don't know.

Isn't it a bit like studying the ingredients on the packet of a special cake someone sells as their livelihood and making your own? It feels wrong to me, and if you have to ask, you probably feel it's wrong deep inside too.

Mind you, magic should make the imposible possible, not be easy to suss out from a demo. I personally don't think that effects like coins through anything is magical any more becasue everyone's doing them, and I own several of these effects.

reality is, no one can stop you doing this. problem is, it is most unlikely you will have uncovered Houchin's entire handling which is quite brilliant. therefore those of us who have paid for the DVD get annoyed when guys who may have gleaned some of it from the teaser preview "half do the trick" and give up the secret because their handling isn't quite right. that spoils it for everyone.

think about it like this. "extreme" i agree but sometimes this is the best way to assess the morals of doing something... what if "everyone did what you propose???

everyone stops buying Houchin's magic, (and the magic of people like him) because they summise how things are done from promo videos. so Houchin (and people like Houchin) leave magic because it cant support them any longer... Houchin gets into real estate.

where are YOU gong to get your next routine from???

...ultimately, why be a bad imitator?

why not learn how the pro's have done it, then add your own twist to it...

...i can't say that you havent sussed out how he does it exactly, but im willing to bet you dont know the subtleties of that or any work you might of gotten the gist of by watching a demo...

don't you feel cheap though doing it?

there is the arguement that by watching someone do a trick and imitating it you are quite unlikely to be using exactly the same method, therefor it could be classed as a different trick. do people hold copyrights on the method? or on the result?
you'd be suprised how easy it is to get around the copyright laws on this kind of thing anyway!

I feel a bit different towards that.
I mean, loads of trick which are out there are "renewed" methods of old tricks...
If he came up with his own method and just got "inspired" by the teaser video, I think that is fine, as long as his method is working as well as Houchin in the real world...

What he saw from the teaser is a signed coin in sealed can... That's all... nothing's given away in there, so fair enough, if he is clever enough to understand AND perform it as well as Houchin does, well, I say good for him...
I personally couldn't, so I got the DVD, but I won't get pi**ed off by that.
Sometimes, I get inspired or get ideas for tricks watching another trick... I don't see the problem in that...

Now I understand how almost every new trick by sankey works. It gives me an idea of how it works, and if I feel like I can make it and try it on my magician friends and they say it's good, well, I'll take it on board... However, what I understood might not be the actual sold method...
So why should I pay for something I found out myself? (i am talking about razor edge here)

everyone stops buying Houchin's magic, (and the magic of people like him) because they summise how things are done from promo videos. so Houchin (and people like Houchin) leave magic because it cant support them any longer... Houchin gets into real estate.

This is interesting. Not everyone will be able to work out exactly how to do a trick from the trailer (maybe something similar but it won't be exactly the same).

However, if everyone could work it out from his promo videos (like in your example), then I disagree that it would be a bad thing; surely if that was the case then the illusion isn't such a great illusion/the promo trailer is too revealing.

therefore those of us who have paid for the DVD get annoyed when guys who may have gleaned some of it from the teaser preview "half do the trick" and give up the secret because their handling isn't quite right. that spoils it for everyone.

Very good point. I hadn't thought of it like that.


I'm considering buying the DVD (any good stockists in the UK?) because even though I think I know how he does it, from what I can gather from reviews of it I will be able to learn all the little tricks and get the handling down perfectly.

I feel quite strongly about this too...much like Tomo said, it's something I just wouldn't feel right doing. I create a little bit myself, and have one or two little bits coming out in the future. Problem is, the more things get ripped or stolen, the less likely creators will be to share their material eventually. Then who'll loose out? Not the creators, they can supply themselves with unique magic that no one else is doing - if someone has worked hard on something, they deserve to be paid, out of respect if anything and for the right to perform it.

You have to remember a lot of creators are full-time working magicians who depend on the income, even if it's not always that huge.

Another point: I don't think that method or complexity of method should be a deciding factor in whether it's okay to effectively steal it. Put simply, you may have been able to figure out Sinful from watching the demo video over and over again, but had Wayne Houchin NOT created it would YOU have done so? It's impossible to tell, but chances are you wouldn't. Had he not come up with it, you wouldn't have been able to perform it. It's a powerful effect, and if you are a working magician making your name with it I think you owe it to the creator.

Imagine if there was the most incredible effect in the world. It's simple, but it's totally original and a killer. This is gold-dust - the stuff that makes names. It's simple, but don't you owe it to the creator for the reuptation you are gaining from it?

Cardza wrote:I feel quite strongly about this too...much like Tomo said, it's something I just wouldn't feel right doing. I create a little bit myself, and have one or two little bits coming out in the future. Problem is, the more things get ripped or stolen, the less likely creators will be to share their material eventually. Then who'll loose out? Not the creators, they can supply themselves with unique magic that no one else is doing - if someone has worked hard on something, they deserve to be paid, out of respect if anything and for the right to perform it.

You have to remember a lot of creators are full-time working magicians who depend on the income, even if it's not always that huge.

Another point: I don't think that method or complexity of method should be a deciding factor in whether it's okay to effectively steal it. Put simply, you may have been able to figure out Sinful from watching the demo video over and over again, but had Wayne Houchin NOT created it would YOU have done so? It's impossible to tell, but chances are you wouldn't. Had he not come up with it, you wouldn't have been able to perform it. It's a powerful effect, and if you are a working magician making your name with it I think you owe it to the creator.

Imagine if there was the most incredible effect in the world. It's simple, but it's totally original and a killer. This is gold-dust - the stuff that makes names. It's simple, but don't you owe it to the creator for the reuptation you are gaining from it?

Well, yes and no...
I mean, when you see Jay Sankey releasing a DVD retailing at £25 for effects that are using only a DL and a twirl move, well, I don't think he deserves my money. That is IF I CAN understand it.
I mean he didn't create the DL nor the twirl move...

I like Jay Sankey's humour, and he has fantastic stuff out there; however, I have been purchasing several of his latest DVDs, and it is always the same thing.
Although Jay Sankey is a genious for his approach to magic and creativity, but I think that now he tends to rip off magicians. He promise you hot s*** on each of his new DVDs, but it always end up being double lifts and twirl moves. With different presentations, you can't build an act only on his (latest) stuff.

Although, If any magician releases new tricks that can be "stolen" by any magician watching the trailer, is it really worth the hassle? You may as well keep your presentation and make money on it through your shows.

I respect creative magicians, people who bring something to the magic community. Wayne Houchin is one of these people, and I'd be more than happy to give him my money.

Jerome the French wrote:Although, If any magician releases new tricks that can be "stolen" by any magician watching the trailer, is it really worth the hassle? You may as well keep your presentation and make money on it through your shows.

That's the dilemma. On the one hand, most creators want to share this material with others. It's just a shame that - especially with pirating - it's becoming less and less financially viable. I'd say that stealing is the right word - you are using material you don't really have any right to be performing, and which you most likely wouldn't be performing had you not seen the effect.

This is the big problem with the internet (well in a magic sense anyways) in the past you got one chance to view something a performer did and unless you were really on the ball you were as amazed as everyone else..... BUT since buying magic from the web and the dreaded youtube has now become commonplace it seems to be the done thing for folks to watch over and over (and sometimes in slow motion) until they seem to have worked out certain effects... THEN they start boasting about it like its going to impress anyone just look at some of the comments on any magic video on youtube and you'll see what i mean.