talkmagic.co.uk

fletch wrote:However the knee jerk sanctimony coming from some becomes wearing.

Amen to that brother

Why post the same topic 3 times? Are you trying to justify your reasonings for wanting everyone to have magic for free?

I have already apologised for that. I didn't feel it was appropriate in the chat room and then mistakenly posted it in here. As there were no responses in the MO area and there ARE responses on here I have continued the converstion on here.

I have requested the mods to delete the erroneous posts and they are free to move the topic where they wish. Is it not for them to chastise me about spamming?

And I haven't said even remotely that I want everyone to have magic for free.

Magicians create effects primarily because of a love of the art rather than to make a profit.

My brother is a plasterer. He really enjoys what he does and he wakes up early because he wants to plaster. If his employer told him he wasn't going to get paid though I doubt he'd still be working for him.

Magicians spend time working on tricks. They could be out doing shows instead and making money that way but they're not, they're putting time in to coming up with effects and should be paid for their work.

And in my profession I put in a large amount of unpaid time learning new techniques and improving existing ones. So what's your point?

fletch wrote:However, I again take issue with the point that creators of effects should forever be financially credited with them.

If I invented a new type of engine that ran on a teaspoon of sugar a week, I could patent it. I would then be able to earn money liscencing that out etc.
Creators of magic haven't got the same safeguards as other people who create things, you seem to want to take more of those away.

You don't like my attitude of my previous reply. I will just remind you that this isn't a question that needed asking. Use the search and I am sure you will find plenty of discussions on this subject already. The best thing about it is that it is entirely FREE for you to use.

You don't like the fact that you have been dissapointed about some DVD's you bought.


You said:

And it is this type of patronising attitude which sums up my points.

it is all down either having a vested interest or wanting to ingratiate oneself with those who DO have a vested interest.


I say:
Now that is just a load of boll**ks. Maybe some of us don't want to rip people off!

"If I invented a new type of engine that ran on a teaspoon of sugar a week, I could patent it. I would then be able to earn money liscencing that out etc.
Creators of magic haven't got the same safeguards as other people who create things, you seem to want to take more of those away. "

Again the smug self serving attitude. Magicians are in the businsee of ENTERTAINING. If you had your way to the degree you wish, it would not be permissible for someone to read a book to their children. (inteellectual property don't you know).


"You don't like my attitude of my previous reply. I will just remind you that this isn't a question that needed asking. Use the search and I am sure you will find plenty of discussions on this subject already."

Yup and I've taken part in them myself. Just because a point has been discussed does not mean that it is not open to be discussed further.

" The best thing about it is that it is entirely FREE for you to use. "

Sarcasm and condescension seems to come easily.

"You don't like the fact that you have been dissapointed about some DVD's you bought"


I've actually not been disappointed with any DVD I've bought. I've learnt from most and don't have a problem with them per se. On the other hand there are a number of effects I've bought which have been terribly flawed.


My overall point on the matter is that there is a real paranoid attitude amongst some magicians. It is self serving and also self defeating. If somone asks me to teach them a trick (and I think they're genuine) i will show them something really basic and then point them in the direction of where to learn further. If they progress then I'm quite happy to share my knowledge. Presumably you would tell them to eff off.


And at the end of all this remember that all of this knowledge is in the public domain anyway. Magic retailers don't discriminate, but maybe it's ok to have access to the "secrets" if you're wealthy.

20 years ago there were no dvd's... 30 years ago there were no vhs tapes.. what does that that leave?

Yep Books... good old books that so many have faith in...
Books containing "magic secrets"

You could go to the Library in those days and "borrow" those books.. yes borrow... no payment... just borrow... and read and learn....

I wonder how the authors of those books managed to eat with all that borrowing?

And did they keep writing more books?

I guess if you know about magic you can answer that one ....

Now point out the difference between then and now?

fletch, you say:

Sarcasm and condescension seems to come easily.

Yep and you have given your fair share of them.

I am not trying to be self serving as you suggest, but you have your ideas, I don't agree, neither of us will change, so I hope you agree to disagree. No point in my posting any more on this subject, as it will not change your view at all. That isn't sarcasm, just a statement. Not worth bringing a thread down when neither of us will move our position.

I am a magician and a musician. So I have two areas of interest on this topic.

A bands purpose is to entertain. So by your theory, anyone should have the right to perform their music, share their music, or do whatever they want with their music because it is the entertainment of the music that should please the musicians. Entertainment is great, but it doesn't put food in your mouth.

The reason why magic and magic materials can be costly (as has been said) IS to keep the art an art and to further instill secrecy and promote a sense of ownership. If you paid $100 dollars to learn something, you will more than likely take the time to learn it inside and out and make it your own. Further you will be less likely to let your friend in on the secret.

If you think that just anyone should have the right to tell all and say all about what is within the art to just anyone because they have the knowledge, fair enough. But that is in complete disreguard of the art and I have no respect for you as a magician.

I do agree that knowledge should be shared. For instance, I would be appauled for someone to retain the secret to curing cancer, or other such life important information.

But let's face it. The perfect billet peek isn't going to save any lives now is it?

"Yep and you have given your fair share of them. "

Errmmm ... where have I been patronising ? Perhaps slightly sarcastic, but not to the bombastic levels of trying to blow away a supposed newbie.


"I am not trying to be self serving as you suggest, but you have your ideas, I don't agree, neither of us will change, so I hope you agree to disagree."

you are entitled to your viewpoint. No problem with this.


" No point in my posting any more on this subject, as it will not change your view at all"

Discussions are not about "changing" someones view. Just giving another perspective. I'm actually very much in the middle ground on this. I'm not about everyone in the world being given free access to everything without having to work at it. I'm not into the shuttered mentality and the godlike respect some of us afford to our senior colleagues.

"If you think that just anyone should have the right to tell all and say all about what is within the art to just anyone because they have the knowledge, fair enough. But that is in complete disreguard of the art and I have no respect for you as a magician. "


Ooops missed this. Agree completely.

fletch wrote:"You could counter this by saying i should write a negative review myself, and indeed I have. Considering the amount of material reviewed, however, I think it is fair to say that there is a fair amount of dross out there."

Not to dig up a comment that we're past, but, I had to comment on this.

I disagree, wholeheartedly.

Often, I won't even read all of the "good" reviews. I'll skim through them, as a child who gets their first remote controlled car is going to love it even if the batteries die after ten minutes. The initial joy of a new trick often outweighs common sense, and I can't help but feel that people often don't even get to fully practice their trick before it's put out for review.

Thus, I put _much_ more weight on the negative ones. If something's bad, I want to know what it is before I purchase it. It's often hard to distinguish between whether it's a flaw in the performance of the poster, or an actual problem with the trick -- but that time spent in investigating is what makes me sure of a purchase.

And, in more correlation to what the others are currently talk about -- let's try this angle...

You make a trick. It's _genius_! Visual, mind-blowing, remarkable trick. You think, "Man, this blows away anything I've seen Blaine, Angel, Cyril, Copperfield, or anyone else do!".

In the creation of this singular trick, sir, you've changed the course of magic as we know it.

After getting it "out there", and having your name tossed around numerous magic forums -- it's time to get it out into the world... but what method do you take?

1) You can sell it, as many so often do. Depending on how mind-blowing the trick is, you can price it high or low... the higher it is, the less people will buy it -- and the greater the secret is kept. The lower it is, it's more likely purchased -- but purchased by people who will most likely take the time to practice and perform it.

2) You can put it on youtube, and let anyone who has internet access look -- and find out how it's done. This includes magicians and laymen, and due to it's 'no' cost will reach a LARGE audience. Quite possibly large enough that the effect of your trick is tarnished, due to the fact that there will _always_ be that guy at the back saying "I know how he did that!".

And you'll know that he does, because he saw it on the internet. For free.

I dont mind teaching some one an effect, if i believe they are ligit.

Most of the people that have ever asked me for the secret to an effect are teens and pre-teens. These kids arent in it for the long hall, most of them will drop it in a few years. Right now most of them just want the secret to either show some one up, or just to know the secret, or because they dont have any money.

Well thats not my problem, I have worked long and hard to earn my money and to buy the effects i own. I dont plan on giving them out so freely.

these sites that are created, are created by these pre-teens and imature teens. Who just want to get the secrets for free.

They have no respect for the art.

Like i said earlier, i wouldnt mind teaching some effects to people who are truley interested, people who have respect for the art.
If they dont have respect for the art, then they have no right to know the secrets.

The newest free secrets forum was created by a past member here. the reason he created it, was because he didnt have any money, and want to learn the secrets free of charge. A person like this i cant stand.


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on the line of a magician teaching unoriginal effects for $20.
This happened not to long ago to a friend, many of you might remember the Lee Asher trade. He found out about XX knock-off of his creation the "Asher Twist." He offered to trade his Asher Twist for the Ghost kings dvd, for a mere 5 dollars.

The site that made the fake, now has no history of ever selling it.

Most of the people that have ever asked me for the secret to an effect are teens and pre-teens. These kids arent in it for the long hall, most of them will drop it in a few years. Right now most of them just want the secret to either show some one up, or just to know the secret, or because they dont have any money.

Well thats not my problem, I have worked long and hard to earn my money and to buy the effects i own. I dont plan on giving them out so freely.

these sites that are created, are created by these pre-teens and imature teens. Who just want to get the secrets for free.

They have no respect for the art.

All good points, and points with which I largely concur. I am not suggesting for a minute that we give out secrets to all and sundry.

Just pointing out (and it has actually pointed itself out with the some of the responses) that perhaps we are sometimes TOO insular (of course I understand that we have to be insular to an extent), more than a little paranoid at times and somewhat inconsistent in applying the "rules" we make for ourselves.

And I also wonder what sort of consistency those who jumped up and down at these sites when (from their knowledge of them) have clearly studied them in some detail to know what effects are revealed. Of course it is for them and their consciences if they took any of the techniques that were revealed on the sites before writing to complain. I'm quite sure they didn't, but then i have great faith in human nature...