talkmagic.co.uk

Hello magical people.

I just read this comment on this site, a review of a t****w****r type product, Sharpie related:

"You can't fool all the people all of the time - some get it right away. But 95% don't."

Obviously this fella was just making a point and didn't mean literally that 5% of people guess what he is doing.

Even so, I just bought one of these items and am concerned. I do feel comfortable with using it, I'm not self conscious when I actually use it, but I do worry that perhaps I should avoid using it in a show.

I'm thinking more people would guess with lead version because they can say 'he might have a bit of lead in his hand' but they're not going to think that about marker ink.

The one I've just bought is lead.

Has anyone had problems with people guessing? I'm particularly concerned about a show - it would only take one person to shout out "he's got a special *** stuck to *** *****" or something like that to ruin a lot of your effects. Does this ever happen?

Also I'm concerned that if you type in 'pencil lead' on ebay, you get a t-writer comes up, giving away the secret to absolutely everyone who buys pencil lead on ebay, plus it's in Paul Znon's book which was the sort of TV tie-in book that would have sold mainly to the general public.

Note that I am concerned about people guessing in a logical way, not people seeing it, I'm pretty good at handling this sort of thing (am great with a regular TT for cigarette vanish, have done it hundreds of times and never been caught).

Thanks!

Well the same applies to all magic, people could go and look up something on the internet after seeing it. So I would just go with it, but it's up to you.

Love the avatar XTTX Very cool!

As the person originally referred to, here is the answer I posted:

--------------------
Hi there,

It may be more for me because I do it sat at a table right in front of them, blatant as you like. But as someone (Cassidy?) once said, if you can walk around a bit you could n.w. the Declaration of Independence and nobody would have a clue. Or did he say pocket write? The principle is the same, movement and misdirection will give you absolute cover.

BUT ....

Actually even then some will know simply because what you are claiming to do (in my case naming their first pet) is logically impossible by any means other than you writing it after they named it. The logical, sceptical audience member will see that there's no other way it can be done. I should emphasise, pretty much EVERYONE who catches me does it by logical deduction, not by observing anything odd.

So you have to think of ways to mask this, as DB does, by providing alternative possible methods that are bogus but may appeal to logical people. DB, for example, pretends that while thinking of the word their mouth or throat suggested certain letters. He makes a big play of it, getting them to lift their chin so he can see clearly, watching the neck while getting them to say the word to themselves etc. All bogus of course, but his knowledge of language and use of words like "plosive" and "sybillants" familiar to linguists might throw a logical observer off the track. Other covers are to suggest that "67% of people choose that number, no idea why ..." or similar feints, but these badly risk reducing the "magic" in the spectator's mind.

Anyway, if you are doing magic there's no way you would pick me out of the crowd to practice on for something like this. You'd pick a 50 year old woman who is out with her friends and has had a glass of wine. So what if a guy at the back reckons he knows how it must have been done? He'll never know.

In spite of the last para, my actual method is doing it 1 on 1 to establish "psychic" credentials. Once you've done that, Cold Reading, palm reading etc becomes far easier.

Lastly, re pencils, if you use pencils throughout then it's not an issue at all. But if you use a Sharpie to get a signed card, then use a pencil it is going to look odd. Have three or four pencils off to one side so it looks normal, as though it just is your preferred tool.

Good luck and let me know if I can help with anything.

Ian


ADMINS - If there's anything too clear in the post, please delete as you see fit. Note from Mods: Can't see any problems!

Ok, I have no experience with nw's at all. From what you have said though, it sounds like all you need is a paperclip. Could you combine this with Jay Sankeys 'Paperclipped' to avoid detection and eliminate suspision (sp?)?

I prefer the boon type as you can pass this from thumb to finger, hand to hand etc, but only because I am a coward. As said before in a TT thread, some TT's are bright colours but are never seen and the audience still think they see empty hands. Performance is the key and who cares if they guess right, they are only guessing they don't know for sure.

I thought the forum was about a completely different subject as the stars replacing the letters makes another phrase that would need censoring. I was going to reply about one of those t**** W*****s being drunk and ruining part of my routine last night.

As clue the first word I thought was "total"

Perhaps we should adopt the acronym 'TW' similar to the way we use 'TT' to avoid (very understandable) confusion with the description of less acceptable spectators?

I thought of putting TW but wasn't sure if people generally used it.

So. Anyone get caught with a TW?

I'm not sure why I am so concerned about getting caught with this particular trick, I'm pretty relaxed about other tricks, gimmicks etc. There's just something about this one that makes me concerned.

l-ule wrote:I thought of putting TW but wasn't sure if people generally used it.

I can't recall seeing it used before so you can probably be the first on TM!

I've seen three live performances recently where such an item was used and I thought the specs would have sussed what was going on in two of them but they didn't. The action was covered by plenty of sweeping gestures with a fully outstretched arm and hand so the focus was well away from the biz. It's probably just something you have to act confident with and do your best to misdirect.

Yes and not use it for too many effects. If you use lots of different principles (or gimmicks or whatever), if someone casually guesses one of the principles, they'll soon start doubting their guess once you do five other routines which work in completely different ways.

And using it with a sight unseen wallet would make it impossible for them to guess unless they've also guessed about the wallet, which seems extremely unlikely!

People will guess several methods. Obviously some will be wrong, some will be more impressive than the actual effect (you glanced at the fanned deck and memorised the order, etc.) one may be correct and on rare occaisions someone will guess a method which is actually better than the one employed.

The important thing is that no-one knows what method was actually used leaving open the possiblilty that no method was actually used.

Yes, this is very important stuff. I'm not into poetry but I read somewhere some idea that poetry is basically ambiguity and I think the same is true with magic/mentalism. If it's a basic thing of did he do it for real in some way or did he cheat then it doesn't have much meaning, but if you can avoid that black and white thing in someway then it's powerful and meaningful.

I would even argue that to be completely convincing (certainly visually) isn't even a good thing. I think this because the most convincing tricks that I have done (Coin Unique and cigarette TT vanish) don't get very meaningful reactions (excited but not meaningful or emotional - the person is baffled, clueless, but not actually confused, if that makes sense.).

The best results I have had have been from getting someone to produce a coin and telling them the date without looking, or telling them to take some matches from a matchbox without me looking and telling them how many they have take (both guesses or educated guesses, ideas from a Drren Brown book). I find this much more powerul than Coin Unique and I can only guess that this is because CU is too visually convincing, to the point that they just shrug their shoulders and say, 'I have no idea what happpened there'. If it looks like a coin deinitely did vanish then there's no psychology for them. Now when I do CU I make it vanish in their hand and dress it up as hypnosis, false memory (how many coins were there before?) and stuff, which seems far more powerful.

This is just my current view from recent experience and stuff I've read (mostly Drren Brown). I'm not saying it's completely correct.

Maybe there is a big difference between someone being baffled (not knowing how you did it) and being confused, their head spinning and stuff (a more emotional or involved state in some way, where they're not just trying to work out mechanically 'how you did that' but they are in some way questioning their understanding of reality.

(I'm hope I'm not just stating the obvious here!)

Good post!

Is it just me or does anyone else think the title of this thread looked like something rude at first glance...?