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Ive been doing magic and mentalism on and off for about 8 years, and i am also a psychology graduate. As a result of the knowledge i have from magic and psychology i am very cynical about religion miracles etc. I am very interested to know whether other magicians are like this, is it harder for us to believe in a religion or a god? Are we all more cynical than non-magicians on the nature of humanity and deceitfulness?

I've always been on the cynical side but not bacause of magic. I would agree that perhaps it could make you look at cetain things in a different light.
However, there are still lots of things that I'm open minded about.

Just look to David Hume! I was cynical for similar reasons, but not anymore. I'm quite open-minded now.

I've been religious from the age of 4.

I started magic February.

I always was impressed with how jesus turned water into wine.

Then I saw Criss Angel do it on his show

but then again....

Criss Angel is not God's son

I think you are just cynical full stop regardless of magic.

I don't just do magic - I play Texas Hold 'EM Poker no-limit, and trust me that makes you cynical about life!

One thing that learning magic has done, is spoil 'magic' for me. I went to see Lance Burton in Las Vegas, and unfortunately I figured out 90% of his tricks. Then when I got home I figured out the other 10% from my magic DVDs...

As for religion...I just stay out of it! Some say it gives people faith, some say it's a control system for the population. Take your pick....

Since starting magic, I have never, ever believed that people have "gifts" and can talk to the spirits, e.t.c. Perform "proper" seances and all that malarky. I don't believe in any of that any more (not that I "really" did anyways)

Thats my thoughts anyhow

As a kid I alwas believed in real magic. When I saw David Copperfield I used to think it was real. Then I became a magician and soon found out that there is no such thing as real magic. A little bit further along the track I've come to the conclusion that i was wrong- there is such a thing as real magic and miracles - but it's very different to how I thought it would be. When I watched David Copperfield as a kid I expierienced real magic - and that had very little to do with 'how the trick worked'. A small part of magic is the mechanics of an effect - the tricks are tools used to create real magic, just like the strings and fretboard and the chords played on a guitar are a tool to making real music.

We are surrounded by magic and miracles everyday. The very fact that I'm typing these plastic keys and what I type appears on this screen. Then I move another plastic object, tap my finger and all this stuff I was thinking is sent across the world in an instant, and is available for all the world to see. That's a miracle - whether one can explain it or not

Magic is all about how you look at the world. A cynic is someone who thinks they know it all and in doing so they close themselves off to really knowing anything at all..

Skullclaw wrote:Ive been doing magic and mentalism on and off for about 8 years, and i am also a psychology graduate. As a result of the knowledge i have from magic and psychology i am very cynical about religion miracles etc. I am very interested to know whether other magicians are like this, is it harder for us to believe in a religion or a god? Are we all more cynical than non-magicians on the nature of humanity and deceitfulness?

I so love your honesty and concern. To answer your question, YES!

But, let me qualify that just a bit...

There has been a growing escalation of an Atheist attitude within magic on the whole, since the 1970s when it became a bit more "posh" to be such. But there is a springboard from which this movement came from which ironically, stems from within the auspices of iconic religion; the fact that the Christian empire does everything it can to disprove the miraculous when it applies to non-christian groups and even from within the auspices of christianity when it comes to those groups "the orthodoxy" find to be questionable i.e. mormonism, 7th day adventists, etc.

There is a very long history of duplicity when it comes to the antics of the Christian world and it's quest to prove itself supreme -- the one and only true course of action. Because this was well known it was a kind of level ground upon which the Atheist could evolve from in their position, actually having seeming support from the Religious segment well into the latter 20th century when much of that began to wane.

What we have today is a very cruel bias that is just as fanatical as the American Christian Right, just selling an entirely differnt bag of goodies. Their primary objective is very simple and something dear Mr. R has seen awards of accomplishment on because he's managed to "rob" so many people of their faith and convert them towards Atheistic perspectives.

I believe that we become a bit more arrogant the more we think we know and as such, we negate the simple and more important, we forget about the power of genuine magic -- belief and the ability to percieve the miraculous. I also believe that we can be realistic while allowing room in our lives for issues of faith. There is no need to sell our soul just to claim the title of being a Magician or an Intellectual or any of those other delusions we human beings love to embrace. Especially when you stop to consider that the Magician or Wise-ard was a religious entity who did see the world a bit differently; using logic, science and other knowledge not known to the common man(woman) so as to create the more miraculous... at least, what would seem miraculous through the eyes of the less educated or "enlightened" as it were.

Finding that balance where we can educated our public and guide them without insulting them or detracting from the foundations of belief is when, in my opinion, we are fulfilling our obligation as protectors of the people. Where we are failing however, is in taking on this pompass attitude that everything is black & white/cut & dry and as such we go out and bully folks, striving to force them into seeing it all "our way" and in so doing, we destroy their hope and in some instances, their reason to thrive.

The more cynical element of the magic world is quick to ask those of us that do Readings about responsibility and obligation but they are also quick to side-step that very same issue when it comes to their evangelic actions and how it affects the people they attack.

I have no love for organized religion that's a well known fact. But I will defend a persons right to observe and practice (so long as they aren't out trying to force me and other to comply to their dictates... which is just as applicable to this issue). I have no doubt in my mind that none of what is being taught today comes even remotely close to the meaning and implications put forth by those mystic masters of yesteryear such as Buddha, Jesus and Mahamed... man loves to tailor his faith so as to fit his agenda vs. tailoring our lives to as to fit the faith.

Bottom line is, one can be skeptical and take what we find with a small Ukranian Salt Mine but, in so doing, we don't have to become so petty as to rob ourselves and those around us of the joys, beauty and magic that is in the world, the power of lore and how it strikes the imagination and invokes wonder along side enchantment... these are the tools of the storyteller and thespian -- the very instruments we, as conjuerors attempt to play as well. So why would we want to totally destroy them?

Skullclaw wrote:Ive been doing magic and mentalism on and off for about 8 years, and i am also a psychology graduate. As a result of the knowledge i have from magic and psychology i am very cynical about religion miracles etc. I am very interested to know whether other magicians are like this, is it harder for us to believe in a religion or a god? Are we all more cynical than non-magicians on the nature of humanity and deceitfulness?

First off, Craig's response is excellent and very well stated. Now for mine (which will not be as well stated).

Yes. I believe that our knowledge of both how easily people can be deceived and how to deceive them does make it harder to believe in religion or a god. I am not certain that it is cynicism or just thinking. It is true that a large number (some may say the vast majority) of educated people have trouble with religious beliefs. One the other hand Albert Einstein (and other famous thinkers) was devoutly religious, on the other hand people who go through the religious training sometimes leave after learning the truth (Nobel prize winning author Halldor Laxness for example). I think any real amount of education will cause someone to question their religious beliefs, though not necessarily cause them to abandon them. The problem with religion is that it relies on believing something that cannot be proven (and the fact that the person or people in question once lived is not confirmation of divinity), and some people, after education, have a hard time taking that leap of faith. The truth is that, no matter how much someone believes in their religion, they have no proof and it is just faith. Now, there is nothign wrong with faith, and even the most ardent athiests have faith, just not in a diety, dieties or supernatural being(s).

I agree with Craig that religion (of lack of it) is perfectly accecptable as long as they do not force their beliefs on others.

I believe that almost all relgions have something good to teach (and let's face it, most religions teach the same basic stuff, they just have different messengers), most religions teach (or have taught) some things that are bad, and almost all religions are misquoted, misinterpreted, or have their otherwise good messages manupilated for negative purposes.

If one choses to believe a particular doctrine that is fine, my hope is that they do not just blindly take the word of someone else as to how the particular book or books of that religion are to be interpreted. Question, and if a religion does not tollerate questioning, they are probably trying to hide something.

I started into magic when I was young. I was always facinated with it and watched performances whenever I could. Taneous is right. The real magic was right there, but I don't think that it is confined in those moments.

I take a great deal of pleasure in a world that is bewildering and wonderful. I enjoy that there is so much I don't understand about how the universe and the world around me works. I can't find it in me to be cynical about religion, miracles, the afterlife, or even human capability. The more I learned about magic, and the more I got to give people a moment of suspended disbelief, the more I understood what I don't know. I love to suspend my own disbelief, when I'm performing or when I watch a performance. I know how it works. I know where the lady went, or how the coin moved from A to B, but what if I'm wrong? I'm not a nutjob that thinks I perform real magic, but it opens up the spectator's mind for a moment, and I get to share in that.

My learned capacity for deceit has not at all diminished my childhood wonderment at what might be possible. It's why I do this. It keeps me as a part of it. I get to perpetuate happiness and bewilderment. Ghosts? Sure. Miracles? Why not? I would love it to be true. Belief is powerful, and I don't see ever convincing myself that I know these things aren't true in some way. That's magic to me, and the magician isn't telling any secrets. I get to wonder.

While the magician may get more cynical, the audience becomes less cynical and more inclined to believe in the possibility of miracles thanks to the performance of the magician. Weird, no?

I´m studying at the college to be an engenier so I have a cientific way of thinking and I´m also a magician so I have a very cynical way of thinking as well.
I really don´t believe anything that cannot be demostrated in laboratory conditions.
So I don´t want to believe, I want to be sure about the things.

Mefistofeles wrote:I really don´t believe anything that cannot be demostrated in laboratory conditions.
So I don´t want to believe, I want to be sure about the things.

Hmm - can you prove that?

We can never be totally sure of anything .

Cardza wrote:We can never be totally sure of anything .

I'm not too sure about that