talkmagic.co.uk

We had a little board discussion a few days ago about ethics of selling magic effects. Along the line someone mentioned E-bay. It seemed as if that good person was looking down his nose about the ethics of selling surplus magic props on E-bay where just about anyone could get their hands on them. I’ve never used E-bay to either buy or sell anything but know what it is of course.

May I ask then, what is the difference between most of the worlds magic dealers have their own web sites who will gladly take anyone’s money for magic whether they appear to be an authentic magician or not and Joe Bloggs advertising – say – a Chop Cup on E-bay?

To a layperson the words ‘Chop Cup’ would mean nothing at all and surely only a person with a genuine interest in magic would be interested in buying, Ummmmmm.

Well I don't think it matters that these things are sold on ebay. You would only search for (let alone buy!) magic products if you had an interest in performing magic. Why would a layman search for a chop cup unless they were seeking to perform with it? People who are interested in just finding secrets tend not to spend loads of money on second hand magic props, they will usually seek a free and often illegal alternative.

There's nothing wrong with buying and selling on eBay but on so many occasions we've heard of customers being ripped off with copied DVDs and CDs, home made versions of packet tricks with very second rate photocopies of the original instructions etc so we have some reservations about the process. Paul Daniels sold a lot of his surplus items a while back and I know of plenty of folks who actively but and sell all sorts of stuff on e-bay with none of these problems so it's just a case of buyer beware.

There's nothing wrong with selling genuine items in good faith on eBay. Some people seem to have a knee-jerk reaction about what they think of as 'exposure'. I've noticed that - counter-intuitively - it's never the people who actually make their living from magic that get that worried about it.

Mark Wynn wrote:May I ask then, what is the difference between most of the worlds magic dealers have their own web sites who will gladly take anyone’s money for magic whether they appear to be an authentic magician or not and Joe Bloggs advertising – say – a Chop Cup on E-bay?

You can sell props on TM. In fact, anything that you can no longer perform once you sell it. So chop cups are okay - anything with a gimmick is okay. You can't sell books or DVDs here because you'll have learned to perform what they contain without them - it's like taking a personal copy and selling on.

So, if you're into giving credit where it's due, buy from a real dealer and the guy who came up with that particular product will benefit. If you're just out to get something cheaply or recooping your invstment, go to eBay and hope you don't get ripped off.

I just don't get questions preceeded with a caveat along the lines of the poster not wanting to actually do the thing they're querying, but querying them in a depth that shows they've thought about them deeply.

If this turns into (another) debate of TM's rules, it was you that mentioned them first. He's only talking about eBay.

I really must stop using this big spoon of mine . . . . Mark

So, if you're into giving credit where it's due, buy from a real dealer and the guy who came up with that particular product will benefit.

Credit has already been given where it's due. The guy who originally came up with the product has already benefited and so has the dealer, when the thing was bought the first time.

Selling props and selling DVDs is pretty much the same thing. You could buy a DVD learn the routines and sell it or buy a prop, learn the secret, make your own version, and sell it.

If a magician sells me his car, I'm free to do with it what I like because it's now mine. The same goes for magic. If I buy magic from a dealer and then sell it on, whoever buys it is free to sell it whenever and to whoever they like.

People might prefer to not sell DVDs or books and that's their choice but it's not an obligation.

While that's true, I think it's fallacious. The reason is that if the company that makes the cars sold the first one and people just sold it amongst themselves, would the company survive?

I'm not after a stamp duty on magic, I just think that buying new anything from independent creators is to support innovation and to encourage them to produce other interesting things.

I'm a bit of a socialist like that at heart

I felt a bit guilty cause I bought the criss angel levitation dvd on ebay for about a fifth of what it cost in the shops

The reason is that if the company that makes the cars sold the first one and people just sold it amongst themselves, would the company survive?

It wouldn't be a company, it would be more like you selling your house and then future buyers selling it on. There is a huge amount of 2nd-hand cars on the market, with many people never buying a new car. This hasn't hurt car manufacturers. There are customers for new items and customers for 2nd-hand.

When the black widow came out there were people who tried to buy one as soon as possible, people who couldn't afford one and people who deliberately waited to get on 2nd-hand. Every producer of any product (non-perishible) understands this and sets their prices accordingly, high enough to make a profit but not so high that everyone holds on for 2nd-hand items.

Magic is extremely vulnerable to piracy however this doesn't obligate honest buyers from legitimately selling or buying any geniune magic products 2nd-hand.

copyright wrote:

The reason is that if the company that makes the cars sold the first one and people just sold it amongst themselves, would the company survive?

It wouldn't be a company, it would be more like you selling your house and then future buyers selling it on.

That argument contains a fallacy. You can't live in your house when you sell it on. You can, however, still perform a trick you learned from a DVD you sold on to recover the cost of learning it. If you do buy magic you can learn and sell on you're taking it for peanuts, and you're depriving the inventor a fresh sale the person who buys your copy would have made through the retailer.

Tell you what, just do whatever your conscience dictates, but let's leave it here.

My argument doesn't contain a fallacy but yours does.

It's here -> If you do buy magic you can learn and sell on you're taking it for peanuts, and you're depriving the inventor a fresh sale the person who buys your copy would have made through the retailer.

You assume that the person who buys 2nd-hand magic would have bought these products new if the 2nd-hand ones were not available. The retailer is only deprived of a sale if the person buying off you would have bought from the retailer if you hadn't offered your items for sale.

However, all 2nd-hand trade deprives retailers from some trade because there will be some people who will buy new if 2nd-hand isn't available. It is assumed in your argument that the retailer has a right to this sale. He does not, and neither does the inventor. As I mentioned previously the original items have already been priced with the 2nd-hand market in mind.

The question of why it is wrong to sell magic 2nd-hand is answered with because it potentially deprives retailers of a sale. The obvious next question is... What right to dealers have to this potential sale?

Tell you what, just do whatever your conscience dictates, but let's leave it here.

I'd already left it there when I said: "People might prefer to not sell DVDs or books and that's their choice but it's not an obligation."

Can we please stick to the original question - the one about selling on e-bay? The moral/legal aspects of buying and selling second hand books, videos DVDs etc has been explored and discussed several times before on TM and there doesn't seem to be a hard and fast answer as it's purely down to each individual's conscience.

I understood the original question to be regarding selling magic props in the public domain, no?