talkmagic.co.uk

I know this isn't overly magical, but I'm sure that some people might use it.

If you're trying to learn to listen to people whilst listening to them (you know what I mean) and you're, say, trying to work out people's primary mode of speech, then practice by watching any unscripted TV programme.

I still find it incredibly hard to listen what people are saying whilst conciously paying attention to how they're saying it, but then I don't practice much.

Here's a better way... GO TO SCHOOL AND TAKE CLASSES!

I've been a Reader for over 30 years. I've also worked as an observer for law enforcement agencies e.g. I have a rather keen eye when it comes to obvserving and summing up a others but, I didn't learn it out of a book I had to do two things; work with people that had experience in this and that field (like NLP and FACTS) over several YEARS in order to get proficient and, in doing this, take classes that were both, formal classroom type lectures as well as certain correspondence type programs.

"…Typical entertainers have no business reading advanced clinical books, playing therapist, removing fears via mentalism routines, etc. It's preposterous! Some apparently feel if they can find the letters 'NLP' on their keyboard, they automatically become health care professionals with a new toy. Many these days don't understand that what was meant to be subtle is being ruined by overuse, overestimation, and misapplication by those who were never meant to even hear of it. These aren't tricks but techniques not to be misused."
Richard Busch, "The Destiny Response", p.16

Richard's perspectives in this particular quote emphasize why so many young enthusiasts need to slow down a bit and consider their own moral and ethical obligations when it comes to playing with the auspices of psychology and related dynamics. The more I study and work within this side of the field the more I believe certification at multiple levels should be a requirement.

Craig. I have been toying with the idea of buying 'The Destiny Response'. It sounds like it could be a useful read.
Do you recommend it?

Most were highly disappointed with it...

Here's the deal... Richard's a great guy and well meaning, but the success of his first book along with a few other things has seemingly gone to his head e.g. he's charging a fortune for a whole lot of nothing these days... BUT, there is another side to this that must be wieghed...

A lot of what you will find in "Destiny Response" and "The Busch Factor" is subtle, clever "nuance"... it's not the kind of thing most are going to notice, it's the fine-tunning kind of stuff that only the more studied and serious students of the craft are a.) going to recognize; and b.) realize how to apply and why.

With this in mind, my suggestion is that you look at your own skill level as a Mentalist in a very cold and honest way and ask yourself if you really are ready to make that kind of committment for yourself on something that's minimal for the most part.

Craig Browning wrote:"Many these days don't understand that what was meant to be subtle is being ruined by overuse, overestimation, and misapplication by those who were never meant to even hear of it.

Amen to that.

Thanks Craig, I am very interested in language structure and the power of phrasing and from the description this book looks like it could be worth a read.
More specifically, is that what it's about? Subtle techiniques to add power to an effect?
I try and use these kind of things to the best advantage when performing as I feel language, storytelling and correct phrasing can say much more than a visual effect sometimes.

I can understand people buying books and DVDs on techniques they can't be bothered to work out for themselves, or perhaps aren't up to. But to buy books on what to say, how to script an act...?

If you want to do a mentalism act, work out what overall effect you want to achieve. Work out how to do it. And then create the act.

There is such dependency on others for creative material in magic and mentalism it's unbelievable.

copyright wrote:Work out how to do it.

That's the simple bit that takes a lifetime.

copyright wrote:I can understand people buying books and DVDs on techniques they can't be bothered to work out for themselves, or perhaps aren't up to. But to buy books on what to say, how to script an act...?

If you want to do a mentalism act, work out what overall effect you want to achieve. Work out how to do it. And then create the act.

There is such dependency on others for creative material in magic and mentalism it's unbelievable.

I think you have completely misunderstood. I was under the impression this book was about using phrases which created a better psychological effect, akin to suggestion.
No one said anything about buying a book of scripts to repeat like some ham actor. All patter I use is my own, but any ideas for suggestive phrasing to make maximum impact is worth reading. That's what a lot of Kenton Kneppers' work concerns.

No one said they wanted to recite a script of any kind.
Maybe some of the previous posts planted some subliminal words into your head...

Tomo working out a method shouldn't take a lifetime. Almost all methods in mentalism are extremely simple. Perfecting a way presenting your material in an interesting and engaging way may take a lifetime but devising methods that will enable you to get the information you need for your act to work shouldn't take that long.

Lord Freddie I didn't mention anything about learning scripts. I'm talking about people relying on others for 'techniques in suggestive phrasing to make maximum impact'.

Most of what has been called 'psychological mentalism' and so on, is completely straightforward stagecraft. I can't understand how these ideas wouldn't come naturally to anyone putting their act together.

I saw Luke Jermay lecture at the International Magic convention last week and couldn't believe that magician's needed what was essentially a human version of the tossed out deck explained so thoroughly for them.

copyright wrote:Tomo working out a method shouldn't take a lifetime.

Yeah, the method's easy. The rest of it takes a lifetime.

But then again, Jermay was born in 1985 and is doing alright.

copyright wrote:But then again, Jermay was born in 1985 and is doing alright.

True, very true. Are the truly gifted the same as the rest of us, though?

Short of idiot savants, there aren't that many 'truly gifted' people.

The attitude that there are gifted demi-gods of mentalism shining their brilliance down on the rest of us, is the main contributing factor in the over-dependence on others in mentalism.

copyright wrote:I can understand people buying books and DVDs on techniques they can't be bothered to work out for themselves, or perhaps aren't up to. But to buy books on what to say, how to script an act...?

If you want to do a mentalism act, work out what overall effect you want to achieve. Work out how to do it. And then create the act.

There is such dependency on others for creative material in magic and mentalism it's unbelievable.

I'm goint to nit-pick here for a bit, it's not a personal attack but you've left an important "opening" here if you would...

For what you say in the line I've highlighted, I fear it is an over simplification in that a huge chunk of the folk claiming to "study" this stuff couldn't say Sh** if it were stuck on the bottom of their foot and make it sound right. We live in a society filled with poorly (READ: Publically) Educated fools, most of whom rarely got much more than a D average when it came to language and comprehension skills who want to learn how to perform linquistic based miralces when they haven't a vocabulary that goes much beyond the sixth or 8th grade level. I know this sounds incredibly cruel and harsh but just look at how horrid basic spelling, grammar, etc. gets displayed on these boards (not to mention everyone going on the defensive and offering 1,001 excuses for their laziness... and no, I'm not perfect on this but I do apply myself. Sadly my fingers get tangled up in the keys at times and other times those two functioning brain cells of mine mis-firel...) The point is, a massive majority of those that think themselves a magician (let alone a mentalist) can't spell it or pronounce the word propperly and as per Jeff Foxworthy's observations, many consider taking the tires off their mobile home a "house warming" party...

Why do I have such an ugly point of view when it comes to such things?

I've been around far too many "Magicians" for far too many years to allow myself to buy into the lie that it's not so.

Getting to the point... learning how to properly use words as adults and in a few fortunate cases as young people, is one of the boons of this craft; one that actually proves that learning can be fun as you learn how to effectively and properly apply words vs. seeing the wrong word or spelling used the wrong way hear... (rim shot please)

(if you didn't get it, look it up)

Kenton's WONDER WORDS is a priceless tool for those that did not grow up or cultivate the mindset in their younger days, that discouraged laziness when it came to speach and speaking (as well as writing). More important, this and tomes similar to Richard's inspire us to stimulate that grey oozie stuff resting between our ears, to actually function which, if we are very lucky, might result not only in our ability of creating the illusion that we are literate professionally inclined individuals, but that we may even have an epiphany if we're not careful and in so doing, create a means of working an effect that is unlike everyone else's... god helps us when that starts happening, we may see "originality" in magic for a change...

Even the heavy players like Kenton, Max, Luke and so forth sit down and watch video after video of their work and rip it apart. They see where to reword things or use particular body language in order to emphasize this or lighten up on that... how to guide both, the audience and those that may be participating in a routine. When you end up like Max, using all sorts of double meaning (double speak -- the audience understands things one way while the participants understand it differently and yet, you use the same words for both meanings.) well, when you cultivate that level of mastery you know that you are well on your way.

There is one point of caution however that many feel to not pause and consider; the words and body language I use probably won't work for you. It isn't only improbably that we would both see the same kind of results using the same words and gestures it is general ignorant to even consider doing such; no one wants to see a parrot doing a magic show or mind reading (I don't think). So you need to wiegh what Chris Carey said long ago as you work with this kind of material and develope the kind of patter that works for you and with you... DO THE STUFF THAT'S YOU!