talkmagic.co.uk

Have any of you come across the friction between simon singh and derren brown?

If so, what are your thoughts and opinions?

Personally, I think Simon Singh has taken Derren's entertainment 'a little' too seriously. He should lighten up and enjoy it.

Here is a quote:
''Please do not misunderstand me. I do love magic. I merely hate it when magicians pretend to be psychologists. By the way, I apologise to magicians for revealing the poker trick, but in my opinion Derren only brings magic into disrepute.'' (btw - I don't want to post a link to his site because it has a small amount of exposure on it, but this is a quote from Simon's official site.)

Someone should tell him what a mentalist is maybe?
It seem like a classic misunderstanding of mentalism.

Oo-er. It sounds personal, doesn't it.

Simon Singh uses this as publicity. If I remember correctly he has an issue with Katie Melua because it isn't a fact that we're twelve billion light years from the edge - or something similar. It sounds overly-pedantic, newspapers use it as light-entertainment filler, his name gets bandied about and his position of radio-show fill in is safe for the next few months.

Having said this, I can sympathise with his position. Anyone who loves knowledge (that sounds sickening, I know) who appreciates and has spent a great deal of time and effort with real science and real literature can not help but feel a strong distaste for 'popular' science/philosophy and the gawping morons who lap it all up.

My stomach twists and knots whenever I see someone walking passed the philosophy section in Blackwells to pick up a book in the Mind & Body section. All the questions they are interested in have been discussed continually for over 2000 years. Instead of reading where we're at on these subjects - the combined efforts of the human race evolved over two thousand years - they'd rather read the luke-warm, over-frothed, skinny latte version summed up in pithy quotes with appropriate pictures.

Derren Brown is not exactly the same thing. But in the same way people tar all e-books with brush used to paint 99% of the rip-offed cr@p available on Ebay, it's hard not to associate Derren Brown's stage show in the same way. Especially when he's just released his own book of popular science just in time for Christmas.

I'm sure I've seen a photo of Derren and Simon (along with Jermay) having a drink somewhere...

I can see Singh's point however. Mentalists may typically (and I know some were going down the whole psychology route) have been citing some kind of psychic power - that's not obviously rooted in science, and there's a lot of scepticism for people to decide for themselves.

With the suggestion side of things, Derren was the one who 'inspired' many people to go out there and dress up their effects as psychology and suggestion and such. Now, the thing with Derren, is he knows how to do it well. He actually knows what he's talking about whereas a lot of people who dress their effects up quite simply don't, or don't seem to anyway, which cheapens the whole thing IMO.

But back on track - Derren knows how to do it, and it is very tempting to take his word as law - I've seen people do it. I don't see that much of a practical issue however. As knowledge (whatever that may be) it may be flawed, but it's not like you're going to go out everyday and try and use those 'methods' in the workplace.

I feel Derren has come to a good comprimise with his current "What you'll see is a mixture of..." line.

I think it's all a publicity thing. It gets his name in the paper and people talk about him. It's all very similar to the Oasis - Robbie Williams friction a few years ago.

Just doesn't seem the magicians/entertainers way.You look at Simon saying those things about Darren and then you look at TM how everyone is so friendly with each other, it must be for publicity. I think Simon doesn't realise or respect Darrens unique style, or more to the point, the banter that goes along with his magic

Cardza wrote:I'm sure I've seen a photo of Derren and Simon (along with Jermay) having a drink somewhere...

As if by magic, here they are with Richard Wizeman and Luke Jermay:

I think Derren's "magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship" line is perfect. If I am not mistaken Derren puts this line in first in his Trick of the Mind series - after this article was published in 2003.

Derren talks extensivly about false belief in his new book, maybe he noticed the lie in his own work and has changed the way it is percieved accordingly. The "mixture of..." line is brilliant, as it sets out the idea that it's and entertainment show.

Recently I did a simple 'tought of' card revelation for this guy. I didn't mention NLP or psychic abilities at all, I gave no explanation and just acted as if I was receiving the card from him in 'some way'. I met this guy ramdomly a few weeks later, as it turned out, he had obvioulsy presumed I was using some kind of psychological technique and he had taken to reading various books on NLP since I met him. I thought this was great as it made me look incredibly skilled and for this I thank Derren Brown. He has popularised the idea that these things can be done, so now with no prompting I have people believing I have these incredible skills rather than thinking of magic tricks.


...cool photo tomo!

Cardza wrote:I'm sure I've seen a photo of Derren and Simon (along with Jermay) having a drink somewhere...

I can see Singh's point however. Mentalists may typically (and I know some were going down the whole psychology route) have been citing some kind of psychic power - that's not obviously rooted in science, and there's a lot of scepticism for people to decide for themselves.

With the suggestion side of things, Derren was the one who 'inspired' many people to go out there and dress up their effects as psychology and suggestion and such. Now, the thing with Derren, is he knows how to do it well. He actually knows what he's talking about whereas a lot of people who dress their effects up quite simply don't, or don't seem to anyway, which cheapens the whole thing IMO.

But back on track - Derren knows how to do it, and it is very tempting to take his word as law - I've seen people do it. I don't see that much of a practical issue however. As knowledge (whatever that may be) it may be flawed, but it's not like you're going to go out everyday and try and use those 'methods' in the workplace.

I feel Derren has come to a good comprimise with his current "What you'll see is a mixture of..." line.

Totally agree. I've never seen a magician be so honest during a performance yet he's still seen in a bad light. I've met Derren and he's a genuinely nice bloke.

It's a publicity thing - look, it's got us talking!

Good quote about the gawping morons, by the way, Copyright - I'm with you on that one. The public are (generally) so damn stupid!

Zack wrote:It's a publicity thing - look, it's got us talking!

...Yeh, damn the evil man!!!

One must remember that the show is entertainment and does not claim to use all psychology. Okay, it is fair to say that Derren lies to the viewer on occassion and invents stories on which certain efects are based, but it's done for entertainment. At the end of the day he wants to create good TV and if that means making the viewer assume that he is using a technique which in fact he isn't then is that really bad? He's not harming anyone!
I'm sure we, being magicians, all do the same thing on a smaller scale on a day-to-day basis.
There are, however, two interesting points to Singh's argument namely; 1) At one stage the 'Derren' section of the C4 website was located in the Science section which is, I suppose, a little confusing and deceptive and 2) that Derren does occasionally use lines such as: 'for our next experiment...' which could be seen as making his effects seem based on science or saying that they are proven.
I think in reality all Derren is doing is trying to make an interesting show and that Singh takes it all too seriously or is just looking for publicity(as previously mentioned).
Either way, I for one will still be watching Derren's shows and wearing my Derren badge (yes, I know, I'm very, very sad ) with pride!

OMG!!!!, where can I get a Derren Brown badge???

I want one.

Hehehe. I got mind custom made by someone in my school for 60p Don't know where else you could get them, eBay ?