talkmagic.co.uk

I have received a private message from Denmark that Soren was enjoying our discussion and he is so upset that the thread was deleted he is going to storm off in a huff.

I urge him not to. I wish to rescue him from great incompetence in the future and educate him further on how important presentation and showmanship is in the art of magic and he wished to educate me on how important it was to be as boring as possible.

I rather like Soren. He is an intelligent young man who is obviously passionate about magic.

We cannot have him storming off in a huff.

This reminds me that Canada and Denmark nearly declared war on each other over some obscure political matter a year or two ago. However both countries are so boring and sensible they decided not to bother.

The moral of the tale for Soren is to hang around and not get upset. Mandrake is only trying to spread calm and love in the universe. A rather tricky proposition when I am around.

mark lewis wrote: A rather tricky proposition when I am around.

you said it big man

Unfortunately so for Mandrake. Sad, but true.

I send Mark Lewis a PM where I regretted that a quite important discussion had been deleted and I did mension that I might reduce my activity on TM. I did not treaten to storm out and it is not my style to throw tantrums. Should I decide to reduce my activity or go elsewhere it is not a statement but just because I did not find here what I was looking for.

For me one of the most important issues in magic concerns general theories of magic. The magic literature contains a huge number of articles that address some of the central questions about how to make the best of our art. When should one be cracking jokes and be funny and when should one stop joking and focus on the magic? Is the main role of the magician to entertain (Lewis) or does the magician also have an obligation to go beyond pure entertainment and ‘move’, ‘shock’, ‘provoke’, ‘teach’ the spectator (my view). Is it important to build up a special magic ‘persona’ or is it better to be natural? Should cardians display Flourishes or does this undermine the magic (Dai Vernon)? Is it OK that a mentalist shows slight of hand and flourishes or should that (for the same reason as given for card magic) be avoided?
In general there seem to be a consensus about many issues. However, frequently a performer reminds us that there are no fixed rules in magic. Former FISM gold medal winner Lennert Green, breaks most rules for card magic, yet all agree that he is an exceptional performer.

On TM Mark Lewis presented me with some of his own views that I found interesting and that where new to me. His views are “controversial” and not the views that (as far as I understand) is shared by what some sociologist would refer to as the elite (e.g. editors of magicians on editorial boards of leading magic periodicals, FISM gold medallists or prize winners, FISM referees, members of prestigious inner circles).

Now I am not an elitist person, and sometimes the elite (usually defined by Sociologists as the leading individuals in their field) disagree or simply gets it wrong.

So I decided to take Mark Lewis views serious, despite that he compared certain performers with dial tones, having little personality etc. The issue is a serious one since the answers might help individuals determine how to build their routines and what direction their magic is moving. Many individuals are just guided by what stock of effects they have, but many professional magicians I have encountered seem to put a great deal of thought into our art.

I now learned that a tread where some of these important issues rose has been deleted by Mandrake. He obviously did that to stop Mark Lewis, but by doing so he also deleted a number of my posts.

I very much disagree that Mark Lewis’s posts should have been deleted just because they are somewhat controversial. In fact Mark Lewis posts contain some of the most important ideas and views I so far have encountered on TM. To delete ML’s controversial views is in my mind not the correct way to deal with them.

To have your posts deleted is like having someone spits on your props! Yes, I understand that the loving father is not spitting at me, but the wind blew this way! Also I am a bit uncertain what I am allowed to write and not write at TM. In my discussion with ML I compared magic to other arts (e.g. music) and I made a number of points that have now been deleted. Maybe I misjudged TM and this type of discussions is considered irrelevant. If so I am certianly off and will move elsewhere! Not as a statement, but not to waiste my time any further.
Maybe, TM could have a special subsection of the general section, called “theory of Magic” where people freely can discuss 'theoretical' issues they feel passionate about without risking being censored because their views does not fit the common gospel.

I will reply later. For the moment however I am aghast at the statement that "all agree" Lennart Green to be an exceptional performer. I don't. I think he is bloody awful. Quite frankly it is like watching Scandinavian paint dry.

I do understand that Soren is duty bound to defend fellow Vikings and I will discuss the matter later.

Soren, I can understand where you are coming from and acknowledge that it must be annoying having your posts deleted, however, you must understand that by deleting the previous thread, the mods are not saying that the discussion is invalid, simply that the posts had gotten out-of-hand. The Moderators did not delete Mark's or anyone else's posts because they contained 'controversial' views, they took the action they did because Mark was, as far as I can see, simply out to cause an argument. As usual in theses circumstances, however, there is not just one person to blame. By deleting the post, the mods are only doing what they are supposed to do.

It's worth remembering that the previous thread which has been deleted had absolutley no place in the section it was posted in (or on this forum at all). I fear that this one will come to a similar end.

Soren Riis wrote:Maybe, TM could have a special subsection of the general section, called “theory of Magic” where people freely can discuss 'theoretical' issues they feel passionate about without risking being censored because their views does not fit the common gospel.

Finally, if you wish to discuss this (valid) topic further, or possibly even create a section devoted to the different and intricate aspects of it, then I would advise you create a new thread in an appropriate section, or suggest the idea via the proper channels(http://www.talkmagic.co.uk/forum5.php).Perhaps the moderators have more to say on this.

Take care,
Jack.

JackWright thanks for the advise! For a 15yr old you certainly have a mature outlook and your writting was so full of wisdom that for a brief moment it occured to me that you in fact were an artificial character created by Mandrake!!

I hope you are "real" but with magicians its always a bit tough to distinguise the real from the magic.

I have followed your advise and put a request for a forum on 'Theory of Magic'.

If the posts got "out of hand" this would be because of impertinent interruptions from troublemakers who complain about troublemaking.

However I shall go henceforth to the other thread but not yet post for a little while. I do get great amusement seeing the blind attempting to lead the blind.

Mark,
is the other thread still alive at the MC? do you have a link?

No doubt you are referring to the svengali thread that evaporated in the brouhahah. Here it is:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... rum=203&56

Mark,
the link gives an error reading. do you have an alternative link or key words for a search?

There is a great deal I feel like saying in respect of many comments made here but I'll limit myself to correcting an inaccuracy and some basic reminders of what TM is all about. Firstly, NO posts have been deleted. I’ll say that again to make sure there's no misunderstanding, NO posts have been deleted - if they'd been deleted you would have noticed your postings totals reduced. The simple fact is that the thread has been taken out of the public area to stop it descending further into the same old arguments and antagonism which has happened time and time again on TM. The action taken is no different to what was done on those occasions and wouldn’t be taken unless we felt it necessary. As is mentioned in the various Stickies, Moderators have the right, and the responsibility, to edit, move or delete posts/threads which are causing concern without explanation. Most times we take the trouble to explain why things have been done but at busy times, when we’d also like to spend a little time with family matters, day jobs etc, it isn’t always possible to give chapter and verse beforehand. By all means carry on but beware that acidic and overly critical threads do nothing for TM and add zilch to our collective store of knowledge of magic which is the whole point of the Forum. And that’s where my contribution to this topic ends.

If Bobbycat goes to the Magic Cafe and then to the "Gaffed Cards" section he will no doubt find the svengali thread which is still fairly high up on the list.

Again I'm seeing squabbles on TM relating to threads on totally different forums and basically i just don't understand why? Lets kiss and makeup and keep TM nice and peaceful ay lads?

I fear the kissing part may be a little too traumatic for me at this stage in my life.