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I am looking for opinions and advice. I have looked through the reviews, and though this topic has been touched on in the reviews, I was hoping to discuss it in more detail here.

First a little background: I have been doing sleight of hand (off and on) for a little over 30 years. I do not use gaffes or gimmicks. This is being said not for comparison with others, or to say one chosen path is better than another, but to give some background to help clarify my point of view.

Now, on to my question:
Having learned most of my magic from books I find the lack of real instruction in the XCM type DVDs dissapointing. I have Extreme Beginnerz, Cradle to Grave, and The System. The "teaching" styles in those videos are somewhat less than what they could potentially be. The System is probably the worst offender, where there appears to be no real instruction, just two angles and speeds for each cut. The De'vo DVDs do a better job in which they have text for some points but in many cases the meaning is implied through motion and finger waving or a thumbs-up. I certainly not questioning the manipulation skills of De'vo or Dan and Dave, one has to just watch the DVDs to confirm their manipulation abilities, it is just the teaching style employed in the DVDs that I am questioning.

So, the main questions are:

1) Am I missing something on these DVDs that would make it easier for someone use to reading descriptions to learn thinks like the Hot Shot Cut and the Syble cuts?

2) Is there someone who produces manipulation DVDs who has a more "conventional" teaching style, again one that would work for someone who is used to reading descriptions.

Thanks to everyone in advance for your time and input

NOTE TO MODS: I was not sure if this should have been posted here or in Support and Tips, please move to Support and Tips if you feel that is the more appropriate topic.

Probably not the most extreme XCM you're going to see, but I've found Rich Ferguson's: Official Poker - Shuffles & Cuts DVD Volume 1 really useful - so much so that I will definitely get more of his stuff once I have all these moves down.

He breaks complex moves down into step-by-step procedures and provides a clear verbal commentary over the top - it is very much like reading the text from a book with accompanying pictures - I rate his teaching style highly.

Maybe his Flourishes/Stunts DVD's would be better suited for what you want? I can't comment on those as I don't have them (yet - roll next birthday!), but here's the moves on Shuffles & Cuts:

(Quote http://www.mymagic.com/dvd/dvd-ferguson.htm)
Table Riffle, In Hands Riffle, Bridge Riffle, Hindu, Overhand, Asian, Back & Forth, Strip Shuffle, Top Pull, Bottom Pull, Table Faro, In Hand Faro, Squaring, One Hand Squeeze, Vertical Bridge, Pinky Bridge, One Hand Faro, Scissor Faro, Waterfall, Dovetail..

Standard Table Cut, Hands To Table, Multi Hands To Table Cut, Center Cut, In Hand Cut, Multiple Table Cut, Strip Cut, Charlier, Pivot, Pivot Toss, Pivot Drop, Swivel Cut, Palm Pivot, One Hand Swivel, Revolve Cut, Revolve Spin, Triple Cut, 3 Way, Clipping, Ferguson's 4 Way, Ferguson's 5 Way, Revolve Pivot, Scissor, Crazy Cut, K-10 Rollover Cut, Pressure Rollover Cut, Auto Cut..

Note: I think Fergie has a habit of renaming moves! But you should be able to work out what these are.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the suggestions.

stepSeven wrote:Note: I think Fergie has a habit of renaming moves! But you should be able to work out what these are.

I have noticed that happens a lot. For example the Shape Shifter change was published in the 80's in a publication called The Trapdoor under a different name. I am assuming that in the case of Shape Shifter that person independently devised the change (as many of us have over the years) and just had not seen it published before. I did not learn of the Trapdoor publication until 20 years after I had came up with it on my own, but like most things in magic, I assumed that someone else had already done it. I have also seen the same thing under many names, which just emphasizes the need to learn the history of our craft.

Hmn, I would have to agree about the ideas of the teaching from Card flourishing DVD's.

I believe the main reason that De'vo doesn't actually talk you through the cut is because of the fact that he keeps himself unknown, he doesn't reveal his face or voice so that is why.

As for the System, I think it looks much more professional if the cuts are taught without any speaking, if the cuts where taught with a script then they would stumble over words and portions of the cut, if you own the system go to the "Pasteboard Animations" section Dan and Dave make quite a lot of mistakes in explaining their material, and if Pasteboard Animations wasn't an underground VHS, but instead, a mainstream product it wouldn't look very professional.

Brian Tudor teaches with talking and doing things bit by bit, Caps Casino Does the same thing with a nice over the shoulder view (at least in CapCuts).
I'm not too sure what method of teaching Daniel Madison has done in his new DVD "Lethal".
And hopefully the teaching in the new Dan and Dave Trilogy will be better than that of The System.

Tom Hutley wrote:I believe the main reason that De'vo doesn't actually talk you through the cut is because of the fact that he keeps himself unknown, he doesn't reveal his face or voice so that is why.

As for the System, I think it looks much more professional if the cuts are taught without any speaking,..... if you own the system go to the "Pasteboard Animations" section Dan and Dave make quite a lot of mistakes in explaining their material

Thanks Tom. I understand De'vo's reasons for not speaking, and that Dan and Dave did stumble quite a bit in the "Pasteboard Animations" section. I ordered a Brian Tudor DVD to check out his teaching style, thanks for the suggestion.

I think that these DVDs show that knowledge of how to do something does not necessarily qualify one to teach others how to do it. I think that this is why, although there are many magicians who have published material, there are fewer magic authors, leading one to the conclusion that the magicians have chosen to have someone else explain their material because they are better writers/teachers than the magician who created the effect.

Brian Tudor in my opinion is going to be just as frusterating as the other DVDs you were talking about. I think almost everyone I know to have one of his DVDs said he was a very poor teacher.

In my experience with his material, he speeds through the explaination almost as fast as he does his tricks. And he definately expects a certain level of knowledge prior to watching his material.

Could you just slow it down?

maybe I just dont udersatnd what you mean

i1011i wrote:Brian Tudor in my opinion is going to be just as frusterating as the other DVDs you were talking about. I think almost everyone I know to have one of his DVDs said he was a very poor teacher.

In my experience with his material, he speeds through the explaination almost as fast as he does his tricks. And he definately expects a certain level of knowledge prior to watching his material.

bizzareio wrote:Could you just slow it down?

Thanks both of you for your input.

If he explains what he is doing, in enough detail, there is at least an explaination. And I have that to work from. The problem I am having with some of the DVDs is the fact that there is no actual explaination, just demonstration. I know that many have been able to learn from the DVDs, but I am, unfortunately, used to learning from books and having detailed descriptions.

Brian Tudor is the worst teacher ou will come across..

I find Devo's instruction very good, just be prepared to stop rewind and play many times concentrating on each move step by step.

The cuts in the system are OUTRAGEOUS but I am finding some of the move s hard to get down due to the extreme lack of instruction. Mainly being the angle is from the front, I would prefer to see what they actually do. Its just the cut they perform slowed down, hence no instrcution, but Im getting there.

You have the best dvd's in my opinion to learn from. Brian Tudors showoff series are good although his teaching style is sh**e. His other DVDs are worse.

Theres no problem with Brian Tudor's teaching, what is wrong with it?

Woah, if you have to rewind the tape when watching a De'vo instructional video then there must be something wrong, he goes over it again and again, what is there to rewind?

As for lack on instruction in The System, some of the moves that are taught in The System do not belong to Dan and Dave, such as the "One Hand Revolution" and "Sybil".
Dan and Dave are very cautious and respectful for other performers, and won't teach a sleight or move that isn't theres, for the benefit of somebody to perform their trick or flourish correctly.
They usually credit the other people who made the move, such as Brian Tudor and Chris Kenner. They think of it as a treasure map.

I meant if he is having trouble with Devo's style of teaching, it is slow enough to follow along, or just keep playing it again till he can do it. I find Devo's teaching style extremely good and I picked up the moves on XB no problem.

Brian Tudor was ok in the Showoff tapes. But Xtreme Genration and the heckler, I think his ego has overblown and he teahces in such an unorthadox way, Idont really see it as teaching. he doesnt talk in complete sentences, doesnt repeat any moves, and is rather dull..

I do love the system and I am getting the moves but it is taking me a little longer. We all have our strengths and weaknesses and its just taking me a little longer picking up the system though I think its awesome and I am loving it when I do get the moves down.

The revolution and sybil cut are used a lot in the system for the majority of cuts and Im just glad I know them, which I am thankful I have Brian Tudors showoff tapes for. I like the 'What the hell happened to sybil' cut, and the revolution looks neat once you have it down smooth

Brian Tudor reminds me a bit of a math teacher who stands infront of the class rattling off the theory straight from the text book as if it is common knowledge at a pace just too fast for you to consciously grasp it.

I brought the system just to practise at home, and i must admit i cant get on without speaking either but i have trouble understnding things anyway. I think they should just break the whole cut then do it bit by bit but unfortunately they just show it in slow motion and i cant get the hang of it. I will say thoe i havent really learned anything of the dvd so instead of wasting my money i just watched it all in fast studied there hand movements and the smoothness of the moves they did, then i just sat there and made up my own so now i have a collection of about five of my own cuts which is quite good.

If you know some basics of flourishing, DnD's System isn't too hard to follow at all. If you're totally new to flourishing, you have to be prepared to learn with patience.

Steve

lindz: I am thinking about extracting the video and reversing the image so, without descriptions it may be easier to mirror what is being shown.

stevebo: I am a little familiar with flourishes, I can do a number of one-handed cuts, two with three groups of cards, and of course the "Hot-shot" cut. I will try to be more patient with the DVDs I have. It is just frustrating when with boks I had no trouble learning flourishes (like the Syble cuts in Out of Control) but the DVDs.