talkmagic.co.uk

hey guys. i was wondering. i am sure there are many senior magicians on the forum who could give us a bit of light on magic over the years.

i have seen a wide variety of magic clips and videos now. and i must say, the further i go back the more it seems to me that card magic and magic in general is sleight based, no gimmicks and very different to magic today. when i watch people like, lennart green, david stone (who i don't think is that old) and as far back as cardini i notice that, there are no fancy gizzmos gadgets or anything. there may be some gizzmos used back then but i have not seen any so correct me if I'm wrong. but i just think it's wierd how magic seems to change..a lot over time.
what do you think?

Its like everything i suppose. As time moves on people evolve more and learn more just like their tricks.

As with many other things technology and new knowledge will soon make the foundations of magic useless or maybe even lose them.

I try to use as few gimmicks as possible, mainly because i class magic as a skill, and with gimmicks hardly any skill is needed.

Magic in the last 5 years has become a commercial playground which is generation-centric.

The younger breed of 'instant-on' magicians who follow Angel and Blaine demand quick, visual and self-working stuff, without all the tedious practice, learning and skill.

Ergo, clever entities such as Ellusionist cater for the demand, and produce stuff which many old-school magicians recognise as rebranded, reworked stuff anyway.

The resultant influx of new 'fast' gimmick based stuff has also shifted the magic economy: There is FAR more value in spending £6 on the Royal Road to Card Magic than paying £10 for an instant download of a one-trick pony... but hey, who wants to read books about magic which were written by people you've never heard of and were dead before your parents got together?

Well, I am not sure how long the fad will last, or how long it will be before the 'noo-generation' get bored of downloading and sharing illegal magic material dies out... but one thing is for sure... the 'real' magic is still there, and the magicians who we hold dear to our hearts aren't really being effected by all this.

I'm not talking about David Blaine or Criss Angel. I'm talking of Vernon, Houdini, Marlo, Kaps, Slydini, Goshman, etc. etc.

And whilst the newer generation are too lazy and ignorant to BECOME magicians rather than just dabble, I'm sure that many of magic's greatest secrets will remain safe, and we'll all keep a sparkle of hope in our hearts.

Well I was interested in magic at a really young age, before Blaine roamed the streets and did his stunts.

So I'm not a "follower" of either Blaine or Angel, I don't really like either of their styles.

I still love the oldies ^^ and really enjoy learning about the history of magic actually.

I never really was into reading, until I got into magic and know usually the best tricks are in books as you put your own style into it and not really watching someone then imitating, though I do find watching something is alot easier to learn.

I always practice my slieghts and I actually really hate carrying around gimmicks. I'm for the impromtu wonders you can do with everyday things.

I don't really know where I'm going with this post, its sort of off topic[ish]?

I just wanted to reply to Seige's comment, as I'm quite young but neither a fan of Angel or Blaine.

Well thats me anyway!
K

Take solice in the fact that when the camera was invented, they assumed that painting would die out and so would the skills. What happened in reality, and certainly as time went on, was that there were rafts and rafts of rubbish photographers and artists learned to become something new.

The camera didn't kill the real artists. Instant tricks won't kill the real magicians and video didn't kill the radio star.

Having said all that about camera ... there are some stunning photographers our there, and they shine above the rest.

I agree with seige. I trend of our time is that everyone strive after fast gratification! In shows like X-factor, big brother and Pop-stars ordinary people become famous over night. Every thing is about the "image" not the content. Today it is seen as something positive that a trick is easy.

Dai Vernon explained (somewhere on the Vernon-tapes) that he was NEVER interested in "easy" tricks. On the other hand if he heard about some effect that were very difficult to perform, he would see it as a challenge.

Anything I studied throughout my life required a considerable effort to reach a high level. I am very alien to this modern notion (that is very widespread) that there is a fast and easy way to mastery.

One thing I do like in modern style is the improvement in tempo. Modern spectators are used to surf the net and take in huge amount of information very fast. Modern films are much faster than older films. The same is valid for magic. Modern magicians tend to present the magic (especially manipulation) at a higher pace. Mentalism and certain types of card magic should in my mind still be presented at a relative slow pace!
The time we live in requires that there should however be hardly any "dead" moments at all.

Yes, most modern films are, but you can find some fantastic new films. How about:

Everything is Illuminated
The Station Agent
You, Me and Everyone We Know
Elizabeth Town
The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou
The Machinist

It's good to know that when the senses have been dulled down good things really shine.

We shouldn't see a culture of quick tricks as destroying our art, but more an opportunity to shine through with our superior wonderment.

EDIT: Let's not forget that in any age there is crud, and it's quickly forgotten. We selectively remember the good things about the past, but there was rubbish then as there is now.

EDIT EDIT: Let's not forget to evolve a bit too.

All the big stage illusions are gimmicks just huge ones. And magicians have been using them since day dot. Maybe card manipulation isn’t really gimmicked but then that’s a group of little illusions that make one big one. Close-up or on stage there is a wealth of gimmicks and all so hundreds of tricks that are not, I don’t know what the balance is but I suspose no one really dose.

Now I pointed Mikey in the way of the late great Tommy Wonder on you tube. He saw Wonder use gimmicks like the vanishing bird cage to his non gimmicked cups and balls , well there is one gimmick but its not that major. Wonder was an expert at slight of hand and misdirection he also knew how to use a gimmick. And I hope no one would argue with me that the late great man was amazing to watch.

Its not if you use a gimmick surley it is how you use one. If buy a self worker and take no time to practice it and think its easy to perform that’s more your fault then the tricks. If I et a self worker I like to look at it for a while play around add or detract something to quote Vernon “you have improved a trick if you remove a slight” I am like the rest of you I have a collection of TT’s and the likes dose this mean I am not a magician because I don’t vanish something in a harder way? Hell no! to a spec the thing that has gone has gone no matter how it is gone usually you get told “its up your sleeve” I quite like that because I get the optuinty to say have a look. I am also no stranger to gimmicked decks you have read my arguments about the Svengali and the Mental photography deck . don’t make them look gimmicked and you have not got a gimmick.

I like to think of my self as TM’s king of sponge. No gimmicks there my friends just slight of hand and its not only a joy for me to perform but gets good reactions. On the other hand so I am told thatr 3rd degree burn gets good ones I have the effect but have not used it. If they get the same reactions I don’t know. A gimmick I see has an extention of your magical arsenal. Of course basic slights are the crux of magic if you are just a gimmick type you cant perform on the spot. If you are just a purest then your doing your self out of some great effects. The point is to strike a Balance of gimmicked and non-gimmicked effects.


Now I do understand what its like to get something that you can perform out of the box. Mental photography available at www.nothingupmysleeve,co,uk cost £9.20 but is great to perform ok its 80p cheaper then the royal road to card magic. But its something not taught in the royal road so is it really a bad thing? I don’t think so each to there own and what not. When performing I do slight of hand magic and also gimmicked magic. Its that balance I was talking about earlier. If you got 100 download effects and run around performing them you may get that MTV generation reaction but what the old “show me a trick appears” then you got problems. I find it sad that even something like magic has now got I want to be a magician now and not study aspect to it now days. I think it is sadder still when some snotty brat says “I can do”what ever heavley gimmicked effect that is the fashion of the time but don’t know how to do a French drop.

Its all a broad banner this magic thing. Some people mess with cards some mess with doves at the end of the day gimmicks are tools and shouldn’t be over used. Use the gimmicks and downloads but for gods sake strike a balance with that and slights or your not only doing your self a disservice but also your audience.

I agree with our wise Seige that all this buy it now - perform it now - download something new, types our secrets are safe. Like my beloved sponge balls and the one coin routine I am working on.

To reiterate a point that's come up before in this thread, and to hopefully get it away from another gimmick vs sleight discussion, gimmicks have been around for as long as magic. Obviously not in the case of the electronics and so on but definitely as complex mechanical gaffs as well as the standard stuff. Maybe t'internet makes you more aware of such things quickly but a look through any catalogue of yesteryear will show you that.

bronz wrote:gimmicks have been around for as long as magic

Quite true - Reginald Scot wrote The Discoverie Of Witchcraft in 1584 and that has plenty of gimmicks in it, some of which are still in use today.

Gimmicks are fine... but tricks which rely soley on the gimmick or gag, and not the skill of the performer, are surely what we're talking about.

e.g. The Black Widow... a grand device, but have any of you heard of the drawer-runner 'gravity feed' devices of old? Same principle, new application.

But you still need the skills and effort. And it's that which is currently overlooked. It would seem that commercial magic as it is now evolving is aimed at learning the tip of what is a very deep iceberg, and it's a sad fact that people just want the quick fix. e.g. a customer of mine who bought a forcing deck contacted me for a refund, as they couldn't find any instructions. And believe it or not, I had a similar incident with a consumer who bought a *single* spongeball. 5 years ago, neither of these items would have been bought by anyone who didn't understand their uses.

Re: age... I wasn't implying that all young magicians are falling into the bracket of 'quick and easy', but the latest wave of magic items available is aimed, it seems, at a purely 'quick fix' audience.

Sorry if I pigeonholed young magicians, it wasn't my intention.

Let's not forget that we've still got to be entertainers. That's a skill in itself. I've seen some really really dull magicians do potentially wonderful effects with far less an entertaining air than my five year old daughter with a standard pack of cards.

I find this whole discussion about gimmicks versus no-gimmicks somewhat irrelevant. Since the spectator never see the gimmick but only notice the effect. The spectators notice whether the items used are their own, can be examined or belongs to the magician. Only in that sense the use of gimmicks matters. It is only the magician who is concerned about the method used.

I am not aware of a single leading magician who opposes the use of gimmicks! What I have objected to is NOT gimmicks, but when gimmicks are used as a substitute for skill. My view is that one need to know the basics of magic before one should begin using gimmicks. Instead of spending a week learning the most basic of card controls, certain newcomers immediately buy a stripper deck and believe they are good enough to perform (maybe on You Tube) the next afternoon.

Personally I do not believe one can utilise gimmicks fully without slight of hand and long experience of performing. Maybe I am old fashioned but in my opinion it is NOT possible to become a magician in a short time. And if one want to be a magician, one should first learn the basics.

In my mind David Jones is an outstanding educator in magic so any wan-a-be magician should first learn all his stuff before they move on with all the gimmicked stuff!! David Jones does not focus on gimmicks, but on the basic slights and ideas!

I do not consider myself a beginner in card magic (in fact I am a semi-professional cardian) yet I am seriously considering buying David Jones beginner’s card magic. He is just such a great teacher!

Today we face an audience, that knows, has seen and can perform some really basic tricks. They are aware of the overused DL and are suspicious about every deck we pull out. Because they know a trick or two they think they are on the same or higher level as you are and become arrogant. Many times after a routine someone says they know an even better trick and do some stupid key card trick without any talking or presentation.
People like this make me mad and I don't think magicians before us had to deal with so many ignorants.

michaelgap1 wrote:Today we face an audience, that knows, has seen and can perform some really basic tricks. They are aware of the overused D/L and are suspicious about every deck we pull out. Because they know a trick or two they think they are on the same or higher level as you are and become arrogant. Many times after a routine someone says they know an even better trick and do some stupid key card trick without any talking or presentation.
People like this make me mad and I don't think magicians before us had to deal with so many ignorants.

But how many people actually do know about the D/L or any other sleight? I think we over worry about what people know and under estimate how much people want to be entertained.

I am a relative newcomer to magic and have a fairly limitted repertoire. I stood up at a dinner party on New Years Eve in front of 8 people (plus my wife who is my greatest critic) and performed for about 20 minutes. It was almost all card magic plus I used Coin Unique and Sankeys Holy Smoly to cover deck switches. The only time I was rumbled was when I performed an under rehearsed prediction effect using one ahead with a card force. And then it was quietly rumbled by one lady who told me afterwards that she knew how I did it because she had seen it done before and the performer had told her the secret.

TV programmes that reveal secrets, web sites that blatantly steal and reveal are actually not very well subscribed to and the chance that someone will have seen something that reveals method is small and still doesn't really spoil the effect in many cases because whilst they may know about a D/L they still can't see it happen if you do it properly. I have done tricks at a magic club where fellow magicians have known that I must have used a D/L, but they didn't see it actually happen because I practice a lot (obsessively actually).

10% of magic is done in the magicians hand and 90% is done in the spectators mind. They all know it is a trick. They all know that we have used a sleight or a gimmick. In most cases they don't care, they like to see a trick being performed well, they like to be tricked. They don't actually believe in magic (unless you are performing for young children which is a delight and privelege)

I firmly believe that we as magicians are becoming over concerned about the effects of tricks being revealed. It is a bore, it is bad behaviour when it is done. But relatively few people actually bother with it and even fewer will have the incredible bad manners to spoil a performance by making a public revelations. As I said, the lady who spotted my one ahead on New Years Eve only told me she knew about it afterwards, privately.

As to the instant fix magic junkies who have watched a TV programme or two, they won't last the course, they won't be interested in magic in a couple of years time. The potential audience out there who want to be entertained by a magician is still enormous.

As far as the television programmes are concerned, they will disappear overnight. A few years ago we couldn't turn the TV on without falling over gardening, make over or cooking programmes. All gone now! So will the fashion for debunking magic disappear and once it doesthe D/L, the TT and any other gimmick or sleight which has been revealed will be forgotten by the viewer who has moved on to celebrity self harm or whatever sick programme idea the TV companies come up with next.