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I am almost ready to find audiences and try to perform on the street and have been wondering about mixing magic and mentalism and wondering can it be done or should I not mix magic and mentalism. Opinions are very welcome also craigs opinions are also very welcome love hearing your opinions.

sweet lord! i will make a prediction (and keep it in an envelope on my desk) - this post will descend into madness...


ok - disclaimer time - these are my opinions, im not telling you to do this, just telling you my opinions and views

Ahem, for me, it goes like this: your character, why/how you do the things that you do (skills/abilities/talents/and so on), those two dictate everything else...sooooooooo.....

as an extremely quick example - you could say force a card on someone, but dress it as "reading their body language" to reveal the card piece by piece...(but its still "just" a trick)...

there is also a hybrid form of magic, called mental magic - this is a very fine line between the two...that line blurs more for some, than others...again, it's up to the individual to decide, and more importantly, the audience...

that is - bearing in mind the audience do not know what "mentalism" means for the most part. If you ask them who Derren Brown is, they'll say - "he's that mind-fiddler", "the magician", "the psychological illusionist", "NLP scrote", "the messiah"....they will also not know who corinda, annemann, dunninger and the rest are...

card magic is for the most part, external...mentalism is for the most part, internal...by that i mean magic is alot more visual than mentalism, mentalism is obviously from within the mind, whether thats a power you have, the ability to read someone or influence them that depends on who you are, and why you are...

i personally don't really like street-magic, whatever style is performed, so i cant comment on whether any form of mental-magic would fit in with street performance in reality (rather than edited down, mtv style tv shows), but again, character dictates everything else in my book...

so, in answer to your question, i feel that both branches of the art can be mixed, aslong as your character and abilites/talents allow that...have fun discovering what's what, whose who, and how's how...

thanks for responding. okay to answer who am I and why am i doing this? I am a serious performer wanting to get exposure to better audiences and to market to people who would look me up and hire me to perform. I am planning to do it as publicty for my resteraunt I plan to work at and other things also. I have gotten a big interest in mentalism and thought it would inpress the audience a little more and shock my friends more so i bought Practical Mental Magic. Theo. Annemann


Just wondering I don't fully understand this and I was wondering if you could explain more in detail what you mean? I could just be tired because it is about 2:00 in the morning where i live. Thanks for your help.

so, in answer to your question, i feel that both branches of the art can be mixed, aslong as your character and abilites/talents allow that...have fun discovering what's what, whose who, and how's how...

by that i mean that whatever your character is when you perform, then whatever skill-set you portray as having (real or imaginary) should influence what you perform to the public and most importantly, how you perform it...a simple card force could be framed as the following:

a person who was an "expert" at reading body language for instance, might ask someone to select an e.s.p. symbol from a pack, ask them to remember it, then look straight at you....you would then say "ah yes, I'm starting to see it already...don't give it away, don't say anything..."

you might even "have to" touch them on the arm to pick up on it on some level too...you might also ask them to repeat the card in their mind over and over, and as they are saying it internally you are watching their eyes for give away "signals"...then you nod and smile as you reveal the colour, then the shape...

just an example...and please, dont take what i say as gospel, its all for you to decide...no one else...

thanks for your help and what consider it gospel I will just keep the opinion in mind. thanks alot.

GooGooDolls wrote:I am almost ready to find audiences and try to perform on the street and have been wondering about mixing magic and mentalism and wondering can it be done or should I not mix magic and mentalism. Opinions are very welcome also craigs opinions are also very welcome love hearing your opinions.

Mixing card effects with mentalism works well for me. I think the standard view is that display of a high level of skill (while doing the card effects) might undermine the impact of the mental effects. I am not sure I fully agree with this as long the mental effects are presented in a manner that seems to rule out any slight of hand.

plus! all the books put out by the pro's contain some cardentalism (just made that up sorry), mentalism with cards...so, if we get told off for doing so, it's only cos we trust the work put out by the masters of mentalism...

Bob Cassidy has a very good line in his Mental Miracles dvd that helps explain to the audience the significance of a pack of cards...

plus when you consider the history of cards, and where they came from, for me at least, it makes sense...

the whole flourish thing is personal choice, i dont, as it suggests (in my opinion) that if i can do a nice big double fancy fan and flick and catch cards...then maybe everything else i do could well just be sleight of hand...

I have written a piece on this on my blog that uses a rather formal model to think about the the choices we all face.

http://drtoddlandman.blogspot.com/2006/ ... alism.html

It is underdeveloped and like Abraxus, sure to cause a stir....

This whole can'o'worms has been discussed before.

I think the general consensus of the working pros seemed to be that mixing the two from a technical point of view was like trying to run a car on syrup.

However, there's not a lot wrong with ACHIEVING one via the other, but unfortunately your mentalism may not be as credible if you're mixing magic with it... ie. if you can make a red signed card appear in a blue deck, what's so amazing about telling someone the name of their first pet?

I used to thing that both disciplines could be intertwined, but the more time goes on, I fear that mixing the two is almost the birth of a genre on it's own.

For sure, it would seem that keeping the two apart is very sensible if you're what could be termed a 'proper' mentalist.

It's also good at this point to define a magician and define a mentalist...

Now, I'm no expert on these matters, but my own definitions are:

Mentalist
A performer who uses mind skill to demonstrate that they somehow can control or manipulate, or even SEE hidden energy.

I've heard many definitions over the years, but one which tends to make a lot of sense is that the art/skill/realm of mentalism is the premise that the mind controls the body, and is at one with physical nature... therefore being part of a whole, the mind can be taught to manipulate physics.

Sounds a bit like Jedi powers? Well, I guess so.

But it brings to the fore the idea that a mentalist achieves his/her displays of skill via use of their mind, nothing more.

For instance, fitting in the category of mentalism:
Psychokinetics/telekenisis—the ability to control the energy in and around objects with the power of the mind, i.e. make a pen move on a table, or change the temperature of a metal spoon enough to 'melt' it.

Mind reading—the ability to delve into the thoughts of a spectator using either specifically psychological or manipulative means, or using insight.

Magic
Magic's more to do with it's origins as a 'supernatural' power. Anything which rationally can't be explained by nature's laws would be said to be magic. In days of old, magic was a bit of a classification which described either the conjouring or invocation of supernatural events, or the event itself.

For instance, if you suddenly hover three feet off the ground after being smitten with a spell it could be classed as 'magic'. And if you call upon the powers of darkness to turn water into blood, that would most definately be magic!

Over the years, magic has become an entertainment. Magicians and conjourers now aren't supernatural beings who use eye of newt and leg of toad to create their 'spells'. They are performance artists who use clever misdirection, sleight of hand, mechanical means and other deceptions to create what is PERCEIVED as magic.

The illusions can sometimes be so strong that magic or the supernatural MUST be the explanation, but, as we all know, it's just VERY clever minds at work.

Examples:
Ambitious card—a card is signed and placed in the centre of a deck of cards, but keeps re-appearing at the top of the pack.

Sawing a lady in half—a woman is placed in a box and visibly cut in two


Crossing the line...
I guess there are crossovers which could be deemed as 'magicalism' or 'mental magic'... which are effects or tricks which LOOK like mind power but are actually achieved using sleight of hand or magic methods.

I won't rock the boat here, as I know that my own personal views on this aren't really the same as those of others, but I do believe that a lot of what is being termed as Mentalism these days is actually what a mentalist would re-badge as either Magic or Mental Magic.

Real mentalism, or 'old school' mentalism, uses a trained mind, and is a mixture of psychology and suggestion. HOWEVER, there ARE similaraties between some of the real mentalism methods and magic methods which link the two.

It all boils down to this: A 'proper' mentalist would strongly defend their pigeonhole/niche and say that magic and mentalism cannot be mixed. A magician would probably argue otherwise.

Mentalism is such a broad area. It's a huge field on its own, with many different disciplines and paths. But it's something that I think requires appreciation, dedication and understanding—especially of the human mind and human nature.

Magic on the other hand can be performed instantly by taking a trip to Woolworths and getting a Marvin's kit.

Perhaps we're safest saying: mentalism + card magic = mental magic

I just see cards as a common medium for an effect. Whether you ask, "Was this your card" (card location) or state, "Your card was" (card divination) is probably the only real difference between the two.

I do both but wouldn't mix them in the same routine, I have a mental routine which includes a couple of PK effects, some mind reading and a thought projection and present it as an experiment using the power of the mind. I keep it very seperate from my card routines as I don't think they mix well.

Lady of Mystery wrote:I do both but wouldn't mix them in the same routine, I have a mental routine which includes a couple of PK effects, some mind reading and a thought projection and present it as an experiment using the power of the mind. I keep it very seperate from my card routines as I don't think they mix well.

Since I forgot to take my lovely mini Rider Waite tarot deck out once, I've pretty much abandoned it when it comes to cold reading and just use words to apparently read the spectator's memories.

From my standpoint, it should all come down to context.

The spectator should not be aware of your methods, regardless of whether you use psychology, sleight of hand or gimmicks. If you can force a card and give a credible performance of fake mind reading for the reveal, that will be as real to the audience as if you give the spectator a free choice and divine the answer through more genuine psychological methods. What makes a difference though, is I believe that the fully psychological routines are capable of delivering a much heavier wallop than a safer 'mental magic' approach.

But provided the punchlines are 'credible' enough (ie, no appearances, disappearances, bunnies or mouth coils) you should be able to leave the audiences' heads spinning by mixing your methods.

Of course, I now stand to be thoroughly flamed by higher authorities.

Pete

*puts on safety helmet, constructs concrete bunker* ok *deep breath* i don't think you can do both mentalism and magic effectively as a combination. As Seige said earlier you are in danger of discrediting your own abilities by mixing the 2. i've said a few times on this forum that to perform at your best you need to have a show which is structured and works together. having 2 or more types of genres mixed together just doesn't work. if you take a look at Derren Brown for example he doesn't do "magic tricks" becuase the credibility of his mentalism would come into question. He is however an extremly talented magician and is great with a deck of cards but to put that in his show would his mentalism. everything he does has a structure to it combined to make his show. paul zennon is another example, when he is doing his tv specials set in bars doing bar bets and tricks he doesn't then go into a houdini escape because it wouldn't fit with the show. by all means do mentalism and magic but keep them as seperate shows i think you'll find it's much more succesful

ah...but there's a few effects on Derren Brown's shows that are pure card sleights, it's just the dressing of them that changes it in the minds of spectators - it became a very strong double prediction...if it wasn't given that framing, it would be a pure card trick...

that's kinda my point really...