talkmagic.co.uk

Ok I'm on a roll, and a few beers
I was reading the posts on another thread regarding the effects of knowing the mechanics of an effect and the way you view that effect once you know the mechanics.
My question is once you know the effect and have performed it many times and it therefore becomes less amazing to yourself do you then stop performing it because it seems to easy to figure out in your own mind.
For instance take an ambtious card routine, what got me into magic seriously was watching an marvins magic performer at Hamleys in London do a what I would now consider a basic AC routine, but the move that bit me was the pop up card.
I saw that move and HAD to know how to do it... I went out bought every book and dvd I could get my grubby mits on at the time one of which was Daryls AC DVD.
Which I then watched over and over again and practiced the moves till my fingers bled... so much so I almost killed myself in a car accident whilst practicing the moves whilst I was driving along the M25 (True story )

Anyway 10 years on my AC routine has changed a lot (although I still use the pop up move in it) but as it was at the start I often wonder if its changed because my moves have improved so I'm happier doing more advanced moves rather than its got better from the spectators perspective?

Much as a lot of the simpler tricks I used to do mechanics wise I now do harder tricks move wise... but I sometimes wonder if the simpler tricks were more entertaining from the spectators perspective?

Thoughts anyone?

Sometimes the simpler tricks can and do have a greater impact on the specs and the forum is scattered with plenty of examples.

Take the coin unique which was recently discussed, this can slay a lay audience in the right hands which is the impact that we're trying to achieve.

To be able to perform something competently I feel that you must know the mechanics inside out witho your eyes closed before you perform it. I don't then see how this could make you think that you need to stop performing it because it's then too easy for YOU to figure out. It just makes it more amazing to the specs.

An ambitious card routine is perhaps a good example as just about everyone does this. My view is that we are all trying to develop something different and there are so many moves that could be included yet a good routine will perhaps contain five or six moves before it becomes tedious. Which five or six moves is the magicians choice and may well depend on skill level.

Wukfit wrote:once you know the effect and have performed it many times and it therefore becomes less amazing to yourself do you then stop performing it because it seems to easy to figure out in your own mind.

Absolutely not. What dictates what I peform is based mainly on how well it plays to the public.

I do appreciate though that as part of the life cycle of an effect for any magician is the sudden doubt that it may in fact be really obvious (we have all had it I am sure), but usually all I have to do is remember my initial recation to seeing the effect performed and then look at the reactions you get when you perform it.

A good example for me of this is Houchin's "sinful". The more often I perform it the more obvious it seems, but it still gets great reactions right and when I first saw it I did think wow!

As for a good Ambitious Card routine, by which I mean a competently peformed ACR, then I seriously doubt there is a more entertaining and magical effect for the lay people.

Seriously - two things. How did it make you feel when you first saw it? What reactions do you get?

On a similar subject - there are effects that I have initially dismissed because I thought them too obvious when I first saw them and I have to say that is also not necessarily a reason to dismiss an effect either. The thing is we know about all sorts of methods so we are going to work out how things are done 1000 times easier than the lay people (are they like the little people in Ireland?) and it goes without saying that the more you see it the more "obvious" it will feel.

Having said all that - there are other factors involved in choosing what we perform. Aside from the practical reasons for perfoming close up magic, such as how easy it resets and how easy it is to fit into pockets there is also the how much we enjoy pefoming it factor.

Wukfit wrote:Much as a lot of the simpler tricks I used to do mechanics wise I now do harder tricks move wise... but I sometimes wonder if the simpler tricks were more entertaining from the spectators perspective?

As our skills increase we get more personal pleasure from pefoming effects that test our abilities a little more. There is something very pleasing about perfoming good sleights and knowing that the awe comes from skill and not just the effect.

As an example, if we based an act entirely on how well it plays for an audience, we could all settle for something like "The Magicians Insurance Policy". as it still works as a very strong effect for lay people, but I personally find it more satisfying to perform other strong effects that tax me a little more.

An interesting question though. Something we all have probably thought about from time to time.

I think when you do overly complex moves this is when you can get in to big mistakes. Personally I am not a big fun of them old knuckle busting sleights. Simple , strong direct magic I am a fan of. This dose not mean every thing I do is a self-worker by no means, and I agree with Bannafish that there is pleasure in learning new moves and performing them . Like the “move” in triumph.

Speaking of triumph I have must have performed it 100’s of times by now. I know how it works I know how it ends, but I still get delight in seeing that card face up. Or when a spec opens her hand to find two sponges.

To me its that old magicians cliché about inspiring wonder and amazement in your audience. That is the pay back for dong the sleight , the reaction of the public.

So no I the more I perform a trick the less amazed I am at the trick. Remember this side of the cards, coin , doves or what ever is totally different from the audiences.

Although I perform effects that use sleights, I think the presentation and rapport created with the specatator is the most important.
If the simplest trick creates an amazing reaction in a spectator, a sense of wonder, then it's suceeded and is true magic.
I find a lot of people these days like to perfom effects to say "look how clever I am!" which doesn't create a sense of wonder but makes the spectator appreciate how many hours you have spent locked away learning it.
Even when I know the workings of something so that it's etched on my brain cells, it still gives me great pleasure to perform it, especially when the person you are performing it to feels they are experiencing something special.

For me, it's not necessarily the repetition and knowledge of the mechanics, but the fact that the trick stops being relevant to my personality that makes me stop doing it. I used to love doing a color monte variation (impromptu) by Jay Sankey, but now I know that 3 card monte type of stuff doesn't suite me. Knuckbusting sleights, on the other hand, I enjoy immensely, but in private, in front of a mirror. I occasionally show them to friends, but it's rare.

I do tricks that get the best reaction. Some of my technically simplist tricks are the ones people go away talking about. I put a new trick in my routine, really wasn't sure about it because it was so simple and in my opinion didn't look that good but set up brilliantly for the next trick (which I've been trying to fit into the routine for ages).

The first simple trick got a much better responce than the second and much more technical one. I finished the second trick and they were still talking about the first.

I think we get caught in the trap where all our tricks must be technically brilliant and we forget about how the actual effect looks to a spectator.

I agree completely. Anyone performing any sort of act must pay attention somewhat to what the audience love...well to a point. It is at the end of the day your act but in an art such as magic I personally think the entertainment of your audience should be your first concern.
For example the pen through banknote always gets a great reaction when ever I do it and it is maybe one of the simplest illusions you can learn.
On the flipside I have tried card tricks that I enjoy doing because of the amount of sleights involve that leave the audience completely cold. I think it was Jay Sankey who said "Don't confuse your experience with theirs as that is the biggest disability a magician can have"
(I'm paraphrasing but that was the general jist)

I guess that the first step in becoming a real magician/performer is when that day arrives that you can separate your mind into 'layperson' and 'magician' points of view.

It's fine to learn loads of XCM and stuff which you can post on YouPoobe for your buddies to drool over, but if you're seriously trying to get your act together (so to speak!) you have to put yourself back in the shoes of the layperson again.

It's pretty obvious that the more you learn, the more you'll be subjectively immune to being impressed by other magicians. But it's not always other magician's that you're going out to impress.

Take, for example, floor gymnastics.

Not sure if you guys/gals have ever watched this at competition level, but this is working in reverse to magic...

It always seems the most boring and 'plain' displays to the SPECTATOR are the ones which score highest with the judges. Technical merit with the judges outweighs entertainment value in this instance. The athlete must totally blank off their mind from 'showing off' their abilities, and instead concentrate on fulfilling the criteria which they know will get them points.

Magic works the same, in reverse. You have to forget your perfect tenkai, remove from your mind the fact you can classic palm 20 £2 coins, and just give them entertainment. The skills which YOU personally find impressive aren't the skills which necessarily a layperson will be floored at.

Learning what works and doesn't work is an experience thing. I think the more you perform in real situations to real people, the more you get a feel of what really gets people going. And I'm not talking about your friends and family, I'm talking about total strangers—who represent a much more realistic cross section of the public.

I've used this example years ago on this forum, but when I used to perform regularly, an effect I always detested was the Zombie ball... but people loved it. Especially, without prejudice, at old folk's homes. They were spellbound by it, and even though my presentation of it was mediocre, it got a fantastic round of applause.

I'm afraid that yes—being a performer DOES to some extent tarnish your appreciation and perception of what's real magic, and what's not.
But I think what is good for everyone is to soak up as much magic in the real world as you can... GO to shows, GO see performances and STUDY what makes a good magician.

As an example, I find Lennart Green totally spelbinding to watch from a magician's perspective—but Mrs Seige finds him dry, dull and a little boring. Ergo, we both see different things when watching.

However, Mrs Seige LOVES Simon Lovell, as do I. We see the SAME things when watching.

And to end, Mrs Seige ADORES Marc Spelman's work. Wheras I find it quite simply dull—educational, but dull (Sorry Marc, I think you're the dogs as a brain, but your performance doesn't set me on fire!). Again, we see different things.

But it's how we use this experience that counts. Learn from it, don't dismiss it. And never be afraid to experiment... you may go through your whole magic life detesting, for example, the humble TT and Silks, but you never know... it may open up a whole new world to you.

Lady of Mystery wrote:I think we get caught in the trap where all our tricks must be technically brilliant and we forget about how the actual effect looks to a spectator.

I agree it's ever so easy to get caught in this trap when performing, when performing under any guise...

I've been playing guitar a lot longer than I've been concentrating on magic, it still boils down to the performance.

I've been in a few bands, one in particular didn't last long at all, all of us (myself included) wanted to display our technical abilities as opposed to entertaining the audience we spent time showcasing the latest phrases and licks and tricks we'd learnt...great for people in the audience who can admire it want to know how it's done (i.e. the guitarists etc.), but half hour guitar solo's and drum solo's (sorry any drummers out there) are boring to a layperson. They, quite rightly, want to be entertained, they want to hear songs from the charts, the classics (you'd always get someone asking for the eagles (which is fine by me, any band that performs music I like!))

To bring the point back to magic, it is the same, as mentioned above think of your reaction to the basic ACR when you would have classed yourself as a layperson, you were blown away by it, after all it started you off down the road of learning magic! Sometimes simplicity is itself magical!

i find it's when i start getting used to an effect, thats the bit i like best, cos it's then my mind starts ticking over more with ways that i can alter it to suit me better...not necessarily improvements, but improvements for me if you get my drift...

OOTW is a prime example, performed the original method til i was properly settled into the effect, then i started messing around with the patter and presentation until it became "mine" a bit more...

Presentation is incredibly important and once an effect is second nature to you, then you can invest more time and energy into making the presentation as effective as possible.
Suggestion, such as the kind used by Luke Jermay and Kenton Knepper can make an effect even more memorable in the spectators mind.
To me, leaving someone feeling astonished and entertained is far more important than leaving them thinking you've done sometihng impressive but forgettable.
lmw hit the nail on the head with his comparison with music. Some highly technical guitar noodling played at breakneck speed will impress other guitarists who will nod their head in appreciation, but do they really enjoy it?
Whereas the popularity of groups like the Beatles and the Beach Boys was down to their audience being truly entertained.