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HEy, I'm developing a trick strongly reying on patter and presentation...I need to come up with some sort of story / patter line to subtley force the spectator to choose any free object from their childhood or any childhood in general, but they have to choose a Red ball....I'm wanting to work it into a sponge ball routine....I have some of the gestures down with my hands but need help with the actual wording to force them to choose a red ball....Any ideas?

How many other objects are there? Couldn't you use a PATEO force?

Derren Brown has a nifty colour red psychological force that you might be interested in.

Well I'm using part of a force from Pure Effect to force the red color, I just need some way to force the actual ball...I don't think it would be that difficult though...What exactly is a pateo force...

You could use equivoque....

DrTodd wrote:You could use equivoque....

have no idea what that means!

My suggestion would be that you make the shape of a ball with your hands subtly, but there is no guarantee that it will work, so you need an out, which I imagine wouldn't be too difficult.

I do strongly suggest that you read 13 Steps to Mentalism by Corinda.

As I recall, the answers you seek are within the first couple of pages.

Forcing the colour RED and a SHAPE would lead to the selection of a RED BALL... you need to plant the imagery in their heads, by seemingly giving them free choice.

I agree with all of the above...firstly do you have a selection of items (in which case an Equivoque - check out Docc Hilford's booklet on the matter - would be the best option) or are you just giving them a free choice?

If you are giving them a free choice of an item from their childhood then you have to be careful for there's no way of guaranteeing they ever played with a red ball, or if they did whether it would have been an enduring childhood toy...they're far more likely to go with something of great emotional relevance.

Opening it up to just selecting a child's toy, and not one specifically from their childhood, would be the better option. You could talk about a time when they were full of bounce (and as you say this your right hand acts as if bouncing a basket ball, as if you were doing it without even realising it, fore example), that kind of thing.

Have them imagine a television screen that is all snowy. Tell them to focus on the screen in their minds and allow the image to become clearer, there is the image of a small child (you could make this gender specific) holding something (here you can make your hands subtley move in the shape of a ball).

...if you think about what a red circle/ball could symbolise to someone, you have plenty of leeway for certain gestures and words/descriptions...

im in a slightly bad mood today, so i'll also say you should buy more books on the subject and understand the process more - that way, you'll get into how to develop them yourself...

I'm certainly not having a go or anything I'm just trying to encourage you to research it all and think for yourself more...and as siege said, if you've not red 13 steps yet, then don't run before you can walk...but have a ball exploring it all...

"as you sit there, let an image develop in your mind, a childhood scene, a lazy evening under the setting sun, children playing hoopla and catch in the streets...you are there with a friend, playing..."

Just out of interest, I'm currently in the research phase of a book on psychological forces. You'll be interested to know that ball and red correlate but only slightly, but they do correlate, so you'll have to prime him in several steps to put success on your side.

Banachek's "Psychological Subtleties" has a force for a triangle with a circle in it. If you start there, you might ascribe the points of the triangle to being a child when he, his mother and father were the most important triangle in his life, and the circle is also interesting as it's symbolic of an innocent childhood toy. The toy is a bright colour, isn't it. Quickly now, without thinking, tell me what colour it already is...

Then go into some lovely cold reading about his relationship with his parents to add credibility and also serve as a big consolation prize in case the swine went for blue before you do the big revelation of a red ball.

[EDIT] Triangle, not circle, doh! Circles don't have points!

...oh, dunno if you've ever done it, but if you hold a blank faced card and have a sponge palmed in the other hand, if you wave the hand with the sponge palmed across the card quite fast, you can slow it down a little as you let the sponge "appear" ontop of the card...it's just a little pressure release as you wave your hand...

As Cardza warns, some kids, including myself, didn't have any red balls when we were kids.

I think you might have to create an image of a virtual child.

This thread is going over my head a bit. It's got a lot of interesting material in it which I just don't own. I'm sure I will do one day.

13 Steps
E'Voque
Verbal Control

All on my list of things to get one day as well as something with Roy Baker's PATEO force.

Marvell wrote:As Cardza warns, some kids, including myself, didn't have any red balls when we were kids.

Ah, look again at my post. I would deliberately tell them the circle is "symbolic" of a "simple" childhood toy, rather than getting them to think back to a specific memory.

Thatw wasn't aimed at you Tomo, it was aimed in general. I understand what you're getting at.

This is the general problem with trying to use a chronological forum to manage that which should be threaded.

Being as red, balls, circles and spheres are all 'primaries', I would imagine that EVERYONE could associate something with the object from their life.

I am still thinking the easiest way to force this object is via simple suggestion of first a colour ,then a shape. If the spectator is then asked to associate a 'red circle' with something from their childhood, I am almost sure most people can attribute a 'red ball' as being the most common object.

So there you have it, force a Circle, and the colour Red. Possibly the most basic psychological forces you can try.

G'an, make old Steven Shaw proud to be a father