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by **Jordan C** » Jan 21st, '07, 21:09

It's not about exposure per se as we all disagree with much of youtube.... but my point was in todays age at what point do you draw the line.... we were taught and the young will continue to be taught via their medias of choice but where do we draw the line?

by **Wukfit** » Jan 21st, '07, 21:16

Jordan C wrote:It's not about exposure per se as we all disagree with much of youtube.... but my point was in todays age at what point do you draw the line.... we were taught and the young will continue to be taught via their medias of choice but where do we draw the line?

In my eyes there is no line anymore... since the onslaught of video, then dvd "magic" has crossed the borders of person to person teaching as was before and moved into the tech age.... there is no need to read a book/go to someones house to learn an effect personally anymore, you just get out your creditcard/filesharing program, type in the numbers and learn the effect in glorious technicolour.... thats how it is... why would you think there is a line?

by **Jordan C** » Jan 21st, '07, 21:27

The line between using the internet etc to teach what we were once taught one on one...... read my original post.

by **Wukfit** » Jan 21st, '07, 21:37

Jordan C wrote:The line between using the internet etc to teach what we were once taught one on one...... read my original post.

I did... like I said IMHO there is no line anymore.
In my experience the only difference between the internet and before is geography... If I met and struck up a friendship with someone in the pub whom I considered to be interested in magic as I am and started to discuss and swap ideas on magic then so be it... the same applys here albeit this pub just happens to be a screen and keyboard.

If what you are asking is would I stand up on a chair and tell the whole pub the methods I was going to use to entertain them.. then no I wouldn't, much as I wouldn't post an exposure video on youtube.

by **Jordan C** » Jan 21st, '07, 21:49

Today we have moved on super fast technologically and communicatively. from snail mail to email, from 3 channels on tv to 100's, from only video tape to dvd, blu ray, hd dvd and downloads!! The list goes on.

As new technology increases so does the youngs attention to the older formats decrease making such things as reading books boring or unfashionable. So ethically we're left with a dilemma of sorts. How do we best utilise new technology to maintain an interest in an ancient art??

We learnt our secrets from being told stuff as much as from the format of our days - books! Today a trainee magi is blessed with downloads, dvds, vhs's, video demos and all sorts!!

by **Wukfit** » Jan 21st, '07, 22:04

Jordan C wrote:
Today we have moved on super fast technologically and communicatively. from snail mail to email, from 3 channels on tv to 100's, from only video tape to dvd, blu ray, hd dvd and downloads!! The list goes on.

As new technology increases so does the youngs attention to the older formats decrease making such things as reading books boring or unfashionable. So ethically we're left with a dilemma of sorts. How do we best utilise new technology to maintain an interest in an ancient art??

Sorry but where do ethics come into this? and as far as utilising the new technology trust me the young are already streets ahead... there is no problem with maintaining an interest in our art.. far from it in fact due to the likes of ellusionist etc... as for learning from books being unfashionable... if they keep an interest for any length of time they will realise that books will teach them a lot more than any ellusionist download ever will.

We learnt our secrets from being told stuff as much as from the format of our days - books! Today a trainee magi is blessed with downloads, dvds, vhs's, video demos and all sorts!!

Lol.. where do think 99% of the material on downloads comes from?
Today a magi is indeed blessed with a mutitude of sources to learn from and anyone with a bit of savvy will exploit all of them.

by **Jordan C** » Jan 21st, '07, 22:25

Ethics come into because we carry an ethical code of honour not to reveal secrets..... therefore everytime we teach something we are breaking our ethics......

I give up.

by **Wukfit** » Jan 21st, '07, 23:07

Jordan C wrote:Ethics come into because we carry an ethical code of honour not to reveal secrets..... therefore everytime we teach something we are breaking our ethics......

I give up.

So how did you learn? or are you trying to say its unethical to learn through a medium other than books/face to face or dvd/video?

by **Jordan C** » Jan 21st, '07, 23:32

you have so missed the point

by **Wukfit** » Jan 22nd, '07, 00:57

Jordan C wrote:you have so missed the point

I guess I have maybe you could clarify it for me? as it seems you are talking in riddles.

by **seige** » Jan 22nd, '07, 09:27

It's becoming more obvious that there's a stalemate situation being reached on the morals, ethics, honour and importance of internet exposure...

We're all entitled to a view on this, and yet it would seem there's no conclusion to the debate.

The reality is, YouTube won't remove their videos unless threatened, which just simply won't happen, as much of the stuff being taught as 'exposure' is beyond copyright. And the file sharing systems who host current commercial magic clones for download won't get shut down overnight.

As I said in the 'other' thread, all we can do as responsible magi, who feel there's still a code left to honour, is not encourage exposure/piracy, and live clean, moral magical lives.

That's about all we can do for the situation.

As I also said in the other debate, the exposure isn't harming working magicians—neither did the 'magic's greatest revelations' type TV shows... but it would seem it is the hobbyists who just don't see that is the case.

Again, I stress: have the surgence of DIY shops over the last 15 years put plumbers and builders out of business? No.
Have cut-price clothes shops put the big fashion brands out of business? No.
Have hotel-based matrimonial ceremonies meant a redundancy for churches? No.

I know these are unrelated, but take a step back and look at the big picture. It's the easiest way to see through the fact that the only people suffering and losing out are the laypeople who watch the substandard drivel which is being whored across the internet.

by **Jordan C** » Jan 22nd, '07, 14:36

And there we have the line - teaching via new technological mediums is ethically ok so long as it does not breach the copyright of a magi or a magi company.

I was never talking about YT per se but using it as an example as where most of these things take place.

So it would now be fair to say that we can ethically allow the instruction of the commonplace tricks and effects that we were taught in our early days however ethically and morally it is completely wrong to allow the exposure of copyrighted material.

Case closed!!

by **Soren Riis** » Jan 22nd, '07, 15:00

Jordan C wrote:And there we have the line - teaching via new technological mediums is ethically ok so long as it does not breach the copyright of a magi or a magi company. ... zip...

Case closed!!

One important issue that complicates the matter! Even traditional magil material is not "advertised". Traditionally, a beginner magician would NOT have direct access to leading performers methods. These days a simple search will tell the beginner where to "buy" the secret. Traditionally most valuable information would only be availeble to member of magic circles!

In general the easier access to information, however personally I am against that people can buy "secrets" without having demonstrated some basic skills in the field.

by **Marvell** » Jan 22nd, '07, 15:02

Jordan C wrote:And there we have the line - teaching via new technological mediums is ethically ok so long as it does not breach the copyright of a magi or a magi company.

Having spoken directly to the copyright office in the UK about this issue, it is clear that the laws do not extend to the method, but merely the wording and images with which it is presented using whatever media it's taught.

So, yes, it may be ethically OK to teach via "new media", but the matter of copyright still hangs. I would be most annoyed if someone, in their own words, presented the method for an effect I'm currently selling for 100 quid a time.

It can't easily be proven that the person is simply rewording the magician's own work (which would be in breach of copyright), since they could claim that they have developed this method independently using building blocks from other sources.

I think there is a common sense issue with teaching via new media, but it's hard to pin down.

I still think we're thinking too much about it though.

by **Marvell** » Jan 22nd, '07, 15:04

Soren Riis wrote:In general the easier access to information, however personally I am against that people can buy "secrets" without having demonstrated some basic skills in the field.

That sounds awfully elitist, but then maybe it was meant to be. I still challenge the notion that people wish to gain these secrets, paid for or otherwise, with any other intention than to practice them or for personal interest.

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