talkmagic.co.uk

I just wanted to state that too many magicians seem like elitists. There is too much secrecy in giving away the methods of sleights and other tricks. I will fully disclose any information or methods that I know. Why? Because in these type of forums there is usually only magicians here. Why keep other folks from improving themselves and taking their skills to other levels. If you know exactly how to do something let folks know. That is what magic should be. It seems to be driven on cash money alone. Magicians with DVDs and prepackaged tricks. Anyway that is my take.

Interesting take!!!!

I can see somewhat what you are saying.....and I don't think anyone will tell you that they have never had a "Brainstorming session" with another magician they know or trust!.....bringing your tools together can help the two of you use your ideas/sleights/effects and improve your performance, put bits and pieces together to create your own performance routines, etc.....this is much different than simply putting techniques, etc, out in the public domain!

Secondly, even if you don't think should be about magicians making money, then lets look at the money from another end.....why don't YOU please go out and purchase every book, vid, manuscript, and effect on the market, and then share with us how all of them are done? Logic says you won't, because why should you spend YOUR money on us? It is easy to say that is, "all about money, " when it is not your money that is in question isn't it!

Don't get me wrong, the exposure/sharing debate can go on forever, cover numerous angles, and stike much ire in even the calmest person, but don't ever overismplify the discussion by saying it is ONLY about the magicins making money....it is also about you spending it, and numerous other points of interest!

So please buy away....I can recommend numerous sites and shops to purchase from.....and let me know when you have everything you need.....then I will PM you my address so you can give it to me for FREE.....I will anxiously await the arrival of your well spend money, props, time, etc.......my guess is that i shouldn't hold my breat though!

No one else may have the balls to be so blatant however..

You're a prat!! or at least your statement was pratlike!!

If people wish to learn magic, all the best to them.. they have my full support.. however..

I have spent well over £1000 over the last year on magic.. why the hell would I just tell some freeloading spotty git everything Ive paid so much money to learn!!

Welcome to magic.. it costs a lot of money.. thats why many will not pursue it..

If you want to become a lawyer.. expect to pay a hell of an amount on Uni fees to pass your diploma..

Magic is a study... and you have to pay to take the course..

you are making me angry now ... you wont like me when im angry !! *cue the green eyes*

That was not a wise first post!!

In quick retrospect..

what we here at TM dont take kindly too is people who come on here ( SO OFTEN ) only to want to be given the secrets as to how something is done.. simply because they have seen it and want to know its method.. for their sanitys sake.. not because they want to learn magic..!!

Many people come here while searching the internet for free magic and stumble accross TM somehow.. most probably as their search brings up a post by some other f*wit who asked the same question here..

so these people NO NO NO!!

But we do have a support section where we DO give advice to those people who wish to improve upon methods or tricks THEY HAVE.. we just keep its EXACT method secret to RESPECT the creator who put a lot of time and effort into it and deserves his dues!!

There.. that wasnt so aggressive.. was it?

Icetroll wrote:I just wanted to state that too many magicians seem like elitists.

As I.D. said it hasn't a jot to do with elitism, rather respect for the creator. You fail to realise (or, worse, just don't care) that behind every effect there is someone who, in most instances, has toiled away for months, often years creating, working and refining their material. They are trying to make a living, just like everyone else - and by openly sharing their methods and secrets you are, in part, robbing them of an income.

I will fully disclose any information or methods that I know.

Then you will get yourself banned.

If you know exactly how to do something let folks know. That is what magic should be.

No, it shouldn't be that way - you know why? Because when creators stop receiving money for their effects, the money they deserve, they'll stop sharing their creations with the magic world. It's already starting to happen. All that will be left will be utter rubbish, and those less creative will have no new material to perform. So yeah, if you want to take a step towards ruinining magic, that is how it should be.

It seems to be driven on cash money alone. Magicians with DVDs and prepackaged tricks. Anyway that is my take.

I don't know what job you do - but how would you like it if you turned up to work tomorrow only to be told that your job has been taken over by a machine? You're out of a job because your company wants to save money. Would that be okay with you?

Hopefully you'll reconsider your ideas, or at least the kinds of posts you'll be making on TM, if you decide to stay around TM (though by your username it doesn't seem too likely).

I have a feeling this new user is some disgruntled nincomwit who has been trying in vein to get free secrets and figures that 'posing' as a magician will enlighten everybody and change our perspective...

wait .. I think its working..

ok.. for a simple coin vanish... just spend it.. HEY PRESTO AND ABRACADABRA you complete and utter sh** for brains.. you dont have the coin anymore...

only thing is .. it seems YOU are the stingy one who wont buy magic so you are actually coming accross rather hypocritical !!

I just read a post on another site from a very well known British magician, one of the best in the business, saying that he wouldn't be going to Blackpool because he hadn't many gigs recently and couldn't afford it.

It's easy to assume these guys are rolling in money when their names appear everywhere, but it simply isn't true.

This guy might earn £400 for two hours work, and then not work for the rest of the month.

And THAT'S why you shouldn't steal from the pro's.

I agree with some of your comments. I understand someone has toiled away for hours. However I would say if someone wanted to know how to perform a Goshman Pinch or how to perform an effective false shuffle magicians are not inclined to help much. I have spent my dues and money on the subject and I feel as a magician it is my duty to help other people in the field. I am not talking about sharing the Sankey key tricks or trademark tricks. But sharing well documented steps in sleights and such should not be a bannable forum offense. Additionally if nobody shares usable practical information why would we be talking here. Also we should encourage people to realize that most of these tricks that are purchased are really not worth the investment. In my opinion sleight of hand and skill is always the best route to take as it will make you a better performer with less output of funds. It does take time and practice however.

And as I said, there is a support and tips section which is for support, support when someone has difficulty performing a sleight or effect. But if someone does not know the first thing about what is is they are trying to leech, we will point them in the direction of a book or dvd which teaches such, a source of material we find helpful, hence helping them avoiding the c*** (not the best) out there. Then if they still have trouble, then we help them.

We wont just teach them because they ask though!!

Icetroll wrote:Why? Because in these type of forums there is usually only magicians here.

Oh dear oh dear.

You've obviously not had a look through forums lately then, have you?

I suggest you set up your own forum, and fight off the torrents and plagues of freeloaders, and THEN let's see you back on your soapbox.

Knowledge doesn't always come for free.

Driving tests, doctor's training, colleges, schools, it always costs money to educate.

Let me present this to you from another point of view...

When Ken Whitaker and I were developing Shadow Vision it entailed a bit over six months time and I believe the final numbers were a tad bit over $9,000.00 to develop the first prototype of the unit and over a year before it was finally to the performance state it had to be... what working pros expect out of a cutting edge illusion.

Now if I were to see some big mouth out in the world explaining the workings and showing the diagrams to that piece just because they think knowledge should be "free" the price exacted could range from legal actions or, we could do things the way my Italian friends used to do things and simply have a back alley chat. Either way, the price one would pay for exposing something I personally put so much blood, sweat & tears into would be far greater than any short lived glory they might see for sharing such insights with any and all.

Truth of the matter is, the fluidity of information within magic today has gotten out of hand and has inspired many, myself included, to pull back. In fact, I have a piece hitting the market in a few weeks that will be heavily restricted when it comes to sales, only 250 total units will ever be made (in my lifetime at least) and the retail price has been set sufficient high to keep the thieves, such as our friend here, from picking it up and blabbing about it all over the internet. There are several books already fitting this sort of format, one just recently clearing the market -- 48 pages that sold for $100.00 and only 100 total copies went out.

We will be seeing more and more of this sort of thing, especially when it comes to the higher levels of technology and approach needed by the real working pros vs. the hobbyists, etc. Let's face it, if magic is your hobby you don't need to know the latest in designs & improvements; the full-time working pros warranting the greater advantage for the sake of competition... at least that's the growing mind-set on the Mentalism side of things, I can't speak for the other side of the fence except to point out that the philosophy of the grand illusion designers/builders is to keep it exceptionally high priced so that the wannabes can't afford it without earning it.

Magic, since it's earliest accountings, has been a craft of secrets; secrets shared ONLY with those that PROVED themselves worthy not those that begged, groveled or bitched loudly. This is the course of reprise we all need to start supporting for the sake of our craft. Placing secrecy back at number one position in our priority lists vs. the "gottahaveit" condition.

A few points. Why bother putting "ice" instead of keeping it as "troll", which seems more apt.

Do you own this site? Didn't think so, so keep to the rules of the owner and Admin.

ANYBODY can join, so your mainly magicians is accurate, but that still leaves the rest who come here just to ask the secrets, so they can spoil the magic. This effects the audience as much as the magician. It's like videoinhg a football match, telling everyone not to let you know the score, getting home, turning it on, then someone telling you the score. Bit of a letdown.

The decent forums, such as this one, have excellent reviews sections. These give an unbiased review of props, tricks, books etc. Along with such sections as support and tips, or general magic in some forums, I reckon between all the people who have taken the time to read and act on the questions and answers, thousands of pounds have been saved on goods that wouldn't have suited those people.

There is, once people get to "know" people through posts, a massive amount of advice given by PM. Not "secrets for free", but enough tips and advice to point people in the right direction and save them time, money and dissapointment.

If you want to give advice for free, which will stop people wasting money on things they wont use, try the following:

Look at the item, don't buy it or read the patter for it. Go away. See if you can write a routine for it that suits your style. if you can, buy it. If not, leave it.

I started working on that a few months ago.

At least that should also help magic as a whole, as there wont be so many thousands of magicians doing the same scripted routine.

PS, human nature being what it is, I DO still buy on impulse, (I do get told off by my C.U.P.S counsellor though) I just don't do it very often anymore.

Edit.
You ask what this forum is about, if we wont share secrets.
There ARE secrets that we share, that new people, and I include myself, don't realise are there. These aren't small secrets such as how to do a D/L etc, but the BIG SECRETS OF MAGIC.
The problem is, begginers come to these forums, get told what the secrets are, but don't want to bother with them.
If I reveal some of those secrets that are freely given, but almost always ignored, will it make you feel better?
Learn the effect, patter, performance, showmanship, routine, how to dress, where and how and when to start performing, ie, not 5 minutes after you read up on it. These are what people skim over in books. They write and answer on forums, so some of them DO take notice.

Have you read the forums, just so that you can see that a huge amount of advice for the good of magic performances, and ultimately the audience, is given here.

You may be talking more about sleights than routines, whan you want people to know for free.
Think if we all went even just along these lines. There would never be another book written about ANY SUBJECT IN THE WORLD, as nobody needs to buy any books ever again. There would be no teachers in our schools, as they wouldn't get paid, because according to you, they should teach all they know without expecting any payment.

there will always be some exposure. Some wont do any harm. Think of it as a balance. As long as the level of exposure can be counterbalanced by a new level of ways to create new, or perform old tricks in a new stlye, everything is ok. Go too far either way, you end up with either stagnant performances, or no performances as too many people know what and how something works to be interested.With the internet revealing so many secrets now, we shouldn't be activly asking magicians to tip the balance too far the wrong way.

What these people don't understand, it's not the 'how' it's done that makes up magic, it's the time spent studying, learning and perfecting what is essentially a skill used to entertain.
Even if these kind of people knew the method, they wouldn't bother to sit and practise it. I agree with Craig, secrecy should be the number one priority of magicians as the art has always thrived and depended upon it.

I'm all for giving advice to people who have shelled out and put in the hard work if they are having with trouble with a sleight or some aspect of the presentation, but a lot of younger magicians are so keen on saying "and this is how I did it!"
Why do these people want to learn magic in the first place? It's certainly not to entertain and carry on a tradition with a very rich history.
It's purely for ego reasons and to say "look how clever I am! I had you fooled with something so simple! Ha!"

None of these dabblers will ever make it as professionals. Audiences want wonder and mystery, not disappointment at how something is done.
Quite a lot of people say to me after a performance that amazed them that they don't know how it was done and woudln't like to know as it would spoil it. People who blatantly ask how it's done I usually ask them WHY they want to know. If they are genuinely interested in learning magic I will point them in the right direction as to what books to buy.
Some people I know ask to "borrow" a book. I always refuse as 1) If they were serious they would want their own copy and 2) I need them myself!

When Ken Whitaker and I were developing Shadow Vision it entailed a bit over six months time and I believe the final numbers were a tad bit over $9,000.00 to develop the first prototype of the unit and over a year before it was finally to the performance state it had to be... what working
pros expect out of a cutting edge illusion.


Please read my other posts before you made yours. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT PATENTED EFFECTS!!!! I am speaking of common vanishes, florishes, etc etc. Even the most simple of things are guarded like government secrets! Maybe the more appropriate place is in a private held forum or a local club to share infomation. Forget it, obviously folks are taking this post as it was not intended.

You have had your say about one person that you felt didn't answer your post as you wrote it. Others have, but you haven't answered those.
You ask people to read your posts before commenting.
Please read all the replies to your post and answer those. There are plenty of them. Or do you just want to ignore any that might show you aren't right?

If you want to reveal ANY SECRETS AT ALL, GET LOST FROM THIS FORUM AS YOU HAVE JOINED UP AND SHOULD AGREE BY ITS RULES. ALSO TRY THE FOLLOWING.
READ AND ACT ON THE PART WHICH ASKS ABOUT GIVING AN INTRODUCTION IN THE INTRODUTION FORUM.

USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION WHERE YOU WILL FIND THIS SUBJECT HAS BEEN COVERED MANY TIMES.

TROLL SOMWHERE THAT CARES ABOUT YOUR OPINION.