talkmagic.co.uk

Hehe... Darrel, he replied to my post...well, part of it, because he caught a glimpse of the fact that I wasn't another hobbyist... or so it would seem.

As I said before, Magic is a trade/craft based on secrets and it needs to go back to being even more "stingy" for lack of a better term, so as to weed out individual like our troll friend.

Darrel wrote:You have had your say about one person that you felt didn't answer your post as you wrote it. Others have, but you haven't answered those.
You ask people to read your posts before commenting.
Please read all the replies to your post and answer those. There are plenty of them. Or do you just want to ignore any that might show you aren't right?

If you want to reveal ANY SECRETS AT ALL, GET LOST FROM THIS FORUM AS YOU HAVE JOINED UP AND SHOULD AGREE BY ITS RULES. ALSO TRY THE FOLLOWING.
READ AND ACT ON THE PART WHICH ASKS ABOUT GIVING AN INTRODUCTION IN THE INTRODUTION FORUM.

USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION WHERE YOU WILL FIND THIS SUBJECT HAS BEEN COVERED MANY TIMES.

TROLL SOMWHERE THAT CARES ABOUT YOUR OPINION.

You obviously care on my opinion as you seem quite angered. Instead of being a constructive critic you get angry. I was not posting about patented effects and I have not even given one shred of knowledge to anyone here. I just wanted to know why magicians in general are to themselves. I guess it is what I thought people need to sell this stuff to others for profit. I will stick to the guidelines here do not worry about that. Oh and further more I do see that people are willing to help on simple things as I have read the others say. So yes I have read them and have reflected on it. I am not trying to "troll". Your responses are the ones that have blasted this into a heated argument. My name is what it is because I happen to like video games as well and I liked the trolls of my favorite game. I could have used a better word than Stingy to keep it less offensive I guess. I do apologize for that.

I agree with Craig 100% about the secrecy thing.

I think that just because were magicians doesn't mean we have to know how every single trick in the world is done. We only have to know the ones we personally perform.

For example -, the Derren Brown daily mirror ''influential'' prediction on his tour. I know that a very similar trick is in 13 Steps to Mentalism , but I really dont want to know exactly how to do his variation, its much more fun to try and use my knowledge of magic to try and figure it out, even though I know I will never figure it out anyway.

I got angry on my SECOND POST, as you complain someone hasn't read yours, but either haven't read or ignored others.

As for you not posting about patented effects, if you HAD read my first post, this was at the bottom of it:

You may be talking more about sleights than routines, whan you want people to know for free.
Think if we all went even just along these lines. There would never be another book written about ANY SUBJECT IN THE WORLD, as nobody needs to buy any books ever again. There would be no teachers in our schools, as they wouldn't get paid, because according to you, they should teach all they know without expecting any payment.

there will always be some exposure. Some wont do any harm. Think of it as a balance. As long as the level of exposure can be counterbalanced by a new level of ways to create new, or perform old tricks in a new stlye, everything is ok. Go too far either way, you end up with either stagnant performances, or no performances as too many people know what and how something works to be interested.With the internet revealing so many secrets now, we shouldn't be activly asking magicians to tip the balance too far the wrong way.


So didn't you read it? I thought it made it clear that this part was in answer to you saying "more about sleights than routines."

Icetroll wrote:

Darrel wrote:You have had your say about one person that you felt didn't answer your post as you wrote it. Others have, but you haven't answered those.
You ask people to read your posts before commenting.
Please read all the replies to your post and answer those. There are plenty of them. Or do you just want to ignore any that might show you aren't right?

If you want to reveal ANY SECRETS AT ALL, GET LOST FROM THIS FORUM AS YOU HAVE JOINED UP AND SHOULD AGREE BY ITS RULES. ALSO TRY THE FOLLOWING.
READ AND ACT ON THE PART WHICH ASKS ABOUT GIVING AN INTRODUCTION IN THE INTRODUTION FORUM.

USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION WHERE YOU WILL FIND THIS SUBJECT HAS BEEN COVERED MANY TIMES.

TROLL SOMWHERE THAT CARES ABOUT YOUR OPINION.

You obviously care on my opinion as you seem quite angered. Instead of being a constructive critic you get angry. I was not posting about patented effects and I have not even given one shred of knowledge to anyone here. I just wanted to know why magicians in general are to themselves. I guess it is what I thought people need to sell this stuff to others for profit. I will stick to the guidelines here do not worry about that. Oh and further more I do see that people are willing to help on simple things as I have read the others say. So yes I have read them and have reflected on it. I am not trying to "troll". Your responses are the ones that have blasted this into a heated argument. My name is what it is because I happen to like video games as well and I liked the trolls of my favorite game. I could have used a better word than Stingy to keep it less offensive I guess. I do apologize for that.

Besides all your other ignorant rants and comments;
If something has is "patented" then any one can look up how its built, made, done. So there is no secret.

If you cant understand why our art is clouded in secrets then you need to find a new hobby, as I doubt its your job. Our entire art is based on secrets and will always be that way. Not just anyone deserves the secrets, it must be earned. Even the "minor" secrets, as the dl and other sleights. But those arent minor, but are very important. Its not to hard to learn these by picking up a book at the local library.

You just dont have any respect for this art or performers or creator.

In fairness to Icetroll, he did clarify his position - basic moves and such, however this has already been suggested before here, and it didn't really amount to anything.

That said, we do help people when they have trouble with certain sleights (I recall seeing one advising on the DL and its variants recently) but don't expose the sleight itself - one reason being, as said in the thread, is not only to keep the methods out of the open forums but also because there are better beginner resources such as The Royal Road To Card Magic, and beginners would be better off studying the book as a whole as opposed to picking up bits and pieces here and there.

Icetroll, you just have to remember that your first post was a little bit unclear in what you meant, and that TM is regularly flooded by people looking for secrets and such, hence the reactions.

Its scientifically proven that if nobody ever lies in this world from this day (or any other day) onwards it will collapse. SO WHY NOT? Why not let it go to hell and start all over again? Because you will go along with it and you don’t want to.
If we begun revealing magic the “creative minds” will go out of business and only good magicians will star as not everyone(literally) will be able to learn from a DVD and make poor copies which will make magic more exotic and valued. SO WHY NOT? Back to the question again and I already pointed out the answer.

You want secrets?

How does the Sawing a Lady in Half Work?

I've owned roughly 8 variations to that trick alone none of them using the same method. Now I could tell you "a method" for accomplishing this famous effect but you would still be ignorant about the other methods out there as well as those yet to be discovered and exploited.

The best secrets as the one's you develop on your own for your own materials and KEEP TO YOUR SELF.

I've pointed this out numerous times in this forum and others, that it is not normal (traditional) to run right out and publish every brain fart that happens in your life, nor is it proper to sell everything you think out. If we all did that you would not have MUM, LINKING RING, MAGIC, GENII and other such publications that are rife with FREE insight and routines.

We so need to get rid of the Virtual side of magic... at least the more exploitive retail side of it, and get back to some of the logic and tradition of the old Brick & Mortar shops of my own youth and beyond. We need to have those classroom sessions such as the Professor used to host (Vernon) and if you did a move wrong or your palming was slopping you got your knuckles cracked with his wand or perhaps a slap up side the head for "being stupid" (and Dai, Marloe, Slydini and most of the other old dogs would tell you just how stupid you were... Marloe being the more kind of the bunch and better mannered... but he was never the boardwalk Hustler the others were).

I'd love to be able to take some of you back to when I was in my 20s, just give you a day inside the Blackstone warehouse. Not looking and playing with all the props but moving things around and getting shipments ready to go, making repairs, cleaning things up, etc. Breaking your back shifting around 400 and 500 pound crates all day long, getting your fingers mangles and toes smashed and if you're lucky, you might just trip a spring catch on something that opens up and lacerates your face like a cat's claws... after all, magic of this size ain't safe to be around if you don't know what you're doing.

BUT, you'll learn the secrets! You'll see first hand how it all works and then some.

To help any one of you guys out with your slights, routines, etc. we would have to be in the same room together in order to be effective. So how would spilling the beans on things via a chat forum bring benefit to anyone?

The basics are explained in books (I know, that's a dirty word but they are filled with some of the most amazing stuff... like secrets... ) by Bill Tarr, Harlen Tarbell, Mark Wilson and many others. You can study the DVDs of Jeff McBride, Michael Ammar, even Vernon himself but the nuances and subtle touches can only be taught one on one and depending on your circumstance, that's probably going to cost; the cost of spending a week in L.A. and attending court at the Magic Castle every night you're in town will give you some insights and opportunities. It's fun as well as informative just as a convention can be... but it all costs.

Nothing in life is free. As I thought about this thread, my back aching; I weighed the price I paid for what I've learned over the years. I know many envy my knowledge, my "position" in magic, etc. but if you think long and hard about the price I've paid... it gets real humbling real fast not to mention pain-filled; physically, mentally, emotionally and at many other levels.

Well... I'm rambling but I think most of you get the gist... there is a price to be exacted and without paying that price... well, there's no real value to be perceived and in my mind magic is just too precious to be seen as "worthless".

I guess that I just don't understand...You want to learn basic sleight of hand? Go to your public library. You'll find dozens, if not scores, of books available for your perusal that will teach you all the basic (and some intermediate to advanced) sleights that your little heart desires.

It's really not that hard to do. I've been doing magic for over 30 years and I still get a kick out of hitting the library to see what they have.

Regarding stinginess...

Take a look around these forums. The amount of knowledge that is there, at no cost to you (other than time and a willingness to learn) is 0 dollars and 0 cents (or, if you're British, then 0 pounds and 0 pence). So, you wonder, why aren't they teaching you to classic palm?

Well, here, try this:

If you wanted to build a house, we wouldn't give you a hammer and nails and a saw...We would discuss the importance of laying a proper foundation, the ramification of load bearing walls, laying pipe and plumbing and running wires. The hammer and nails and saw are yours to go out and buy.

Same with magic. The sleights are the tools that you build your magic with. This site teaches you magic, not sleights. That's your problem - you think that they should be supplying you with the tools. That is your job...It is your job to get the tools, it's not our job to supply you with them. However, once you have those tools, you'll find everything that you need on this site to teach you how to properly use those tools.

If you can't find it, then simply ask. I have yet to see anyone on this site refuse to help an earnest student of magic. By "earnest student" I mean someone who doesn't expect everyone else to supply him/her with the tools because they seem to have some misguided belief that they are entitled to everything for nothing.

And, you'll find the good folks of this site more than happy to help you with those tools. But don't call them stingy because they don't supply you with the tools. Not only is that insulting, it's downright disgusting.

Mike.