talkmagic.co.uk

not sure if we're allowed to discuss this, but i'll give it a go.

how much do you charge for a gig? prices may vary depending on how far the venue is (petrol money) and what type of gig it is; weddings, parties...

i just want to get an idea of how much a magician chargers
thanks.

Ok... what kind of gigs? How much time? Is the client making any special requests on things?

I've done projects for Ford Motors that ran well into the 7 digit frame while I more frequently do projects that are but a few hundred here and there.

This is something that has a great number of variances and variables including your own sense of novelty, popularity (demand), experience, etc.

I know guys with30 years experience that can't make as much as the young buck fresh out of College in that they don't have the marketing & business side as down as that kid and yet, the kid probably couldn't keep up with the old timer when it comes to technique and smoothness.. this is another variable... sadly, youth sells far better than aged old wizards will...

On the average, the typical child's performer should be seeing between $150.00 (very low end) to about $300.00 average to about $500.00 high for between 20 and 40 minutes of their time... that's the ballpark most shoot for HOWEVER... when it comes to actual averages of income projected by our good friend the Tax Man... most actually average about half that. We have more $50.00 and $75.00 whores of magic doing kiddie shows today than existed in the 1950s and 60s when that was the average fee paid our kind.

I don't do a lot of shows now days and when I get talked into one, most folks are paying between $150.00 to as much as $500.00 a head, depending on which show I'm doing, where, etc. Bear in mind that my audience is rarely more than about 30 guests and the fee includes a few added frills like food & drinks.

You can work out how much you should charge by calculating how much you should be earning a year (find a job that requires a similar level of training, skills etc.) And then work out the hourly rate. Once done, you can work out how many hours of work go into a show based on a normal working week.

So if you think a working magician ought to earn as much as, for example, civil, structural, municipal, mining & quarrying engineers then you ought to earn around £28,201 (based on 2001 UK New Earnings Survey published by the Office for National Statistics Engineering Council Survey of Registrants 2000)

This works out at about £13.55 an hour. If you perform 4 hours a week and practice for 36 hrs a week. And if you consider a normal working week to be 4 one hour shows, then you ought to charge around £135 ($265) a show.

There are other things to take into account but you can get the basic idea from the above example.

That's the strangest math I've ever seen in this business... I guess it has an odd logic to it, but the key term here is "odd"

As a rule of thumb IF there are other performers in your region be it a clown doing kiddie shows or other magicians... call them up, tell them you are thinking of hiring them for a party and see what they charge (stop moaning guys, everyone does it!)... Since you're new to the market you want to be a LITTLE BIT under their fees but not grossly undercutting... you really want to be pretty darn close to what everyone is asking for the same amount of time.

As a Side Note... I feel sorry for you Brits if you think an hour show is the "stock" deal... gesh! 20 minutes is about the average... unless I've been away from that world longer than I thought. 20 minutes for $150 to about $300.00 is normal for a working pro. Most guys in these parts do two to three shows daily 3-5 days weekly.

Well, I think the obvious answer is to see what your competitors are charging and create your prices around that. Which is pretty much what Craig is saying. However, anyone who thinks it's odd to work out their desired annual salary compared to the work needed to achieve the figure, has an 'odd' approach to career management

Unfortunately a desired salary is often not a realistic salary.

Craig Browning wrote: We have more $50.00 and $75.00 whores of magic doing kiddie shows today than existed in the 1950s and 60s when that was the average fee paid our kind.

Craig, without trying to start an argument, can I merely point out that you have yet again referred to magicians when you want to show something bad, eg calling them "whores".

You then go on to say how much you charge, which at $150 -$500 per head, is for mentalism, not childrens shows.

So are you saying all mentalists charging about $50-$90 dollars a head or less are whores?

Wont post the rest, as I did say I didn't want to start an argument.

I chose to re-word my response to the above snip, helping you all better understand a few things (I hope).

Firstly, the public views what I do as a Psychic Entertainer in an entirely different light than what most of you do, as magicians. Like it or not, the average human being could care less about magic and magic tricks; they give very little investment towards it e.g. little in way of perceived value. This is not just my words, it is a known fact that has been realized, cussed and discussed numerous times over the years on multiple forums and long prior to the internet in various club houses long before that.

Yes, there are those exceptions in the world but the greater 90% of you will never become as proficient and amusing as Michael Ammar or Darryl Martinez or any number of others, be it close-up or stage. The guys of this league get the $2,000.00 to well over $10,000.00 per gig that you are not likely to ever see in that the odds are grossly stacked against you (less than 5% of those involved in magic at any level, make a full-time and exclusive living doing it.) I'll add one more factor to this picture as well; most of you will not be willing to make the sacrifice of time and personal life that's required for climbing said ladder and reaching said pentacle. Most of us can't survive it... I know, I tried and it damn near killed me.

When it comes to Mentalism...well, a part of the previously outlined truth still applies in that the greater majority of people that think themselves "Mentalists" aren't -- they are magicians doing tricks vs. orators that know how to enchant. Not everyone can pull off solid Mentalism in that it is 90% showmanship and of that, a huge amount of psychological investment that's not always easy to sell. But even here we have differing elements that will allow one style of mentalism to sell better and be more lucrative than another. The logic falling more in place within the auspices and perception of what theater is and isn't.

HINT: Doing a Magic show isn't theater... not what the typical consumer would call "Theater" at least.

What I do along with Docc Hilford, Rick Maue, Keith Hart and a handful of others, is I present intimate, interactive Mystery Theater -- Dinner Shows with a Psychic or Surreal Theme.

The typical patron of theater is used to the fact that even a low end show is going to cost $40.00 to well over $75.00 to attend with programs that are a bit more established and unique running well into the several hundred if not thousands of dollars per seat. They know this is the standard and they are willing to pay it FOR A THEATRICAL PRODUCTION. If I said what I do was a magic show that took on the feel of things psychic and paranormal I wouldn't get half that amount... same seems to be true when you plaster disclaimers all over the place in the masturbative effort of educating the public on things that aren't supposed to have anything to do with our actual job description. But hey, if you want to make less money and work harder, go for it! I know the Evansons will never return to Monday Night Magic in NYC because of the antics of Mr. Swiss to this regard.

Now we all know that little passage about magicians being actors... but how many of us have had formal acting type training or know what the difference is between up-stage and down, etc?

That's simply not the case with most magicians; fewer yet understanding why they need dance, voice and speaking classes, make-up and elements of technical theater so as to gain the strongest possible advantages around what they do. I can assure you, that minority within our ranks that has "made it" didn't shrug off many of these areas of self-improvement and that is exactly why their lights shine brighter.

You have stated that I'm "putting down magicians again" when in truth, most magicians accomplish this all on their own by being a parody of what a magician is supposed to be... something we've lost over the years and something I hope and pray finds its way back within our folds sometime soon. But the truth of the matter is, there are three types of person that bares the label of "Magician"... the buffoon that loves wise cracks, corny jokes and uses magic more as a prop for getting laughs or someone in their bed. Many in this category are Used Car Salesmen by day, womanizers or perverse in some other manner, think themselves the hottest thing to walk the planet and fail to recognize that they are the living stereotype of GEEK as defined by most of the world.

Then you have pack-rat and collector... they might have their geek filled moments but they are best described as gadget freaks and techno-nerds (and I proudly admit that I best fit this niche).

Then you have what I call the Gentleman Magician -- your John Calvert, Blackstone, and Pollack modes of being educated, sophisticated, confident, and controlled. In short, we are talking about the guys that are pure class. Sadly, where the first type are a dime a dozen I feel one would be hard pressed to find more than a dozen fitting this mold alive and working at any one given time or generation they are so rare and yet they are the epitome of what the public wants US to be.

So when I call Norm Nielson a "Magician" it is this latter image and idea that I am honoring him with and it is in deed a truth in that Norman is one of the few I've seen over the years that genuinely enchanted me through his work via his grace and deliberateness -- his confidence and charm. Then again, that is why he performs for high ranking officials and earns the kind of top wage this industry allows.

Aside from the fact that I have a very extensive background in this stuff, I also understand the psychology of niche marketing, which is why I cam able to organize events that turn the kind of money I've noted. I offer a general outline to it all in my new book THE COMPILED PSYCHIC TECHNOLOGIES if anyone challenging my statements of income would be willing to put their money where their mouth is and see for themselves that it is possible. I know it's worked for Docc, Richard Webster and numerous others that were known as Mentalists & Bizarrist long before anyone ever heard of Criss Angel, David Blaine or Derren Brown... long before it all got so commercial.

If you present yourself and what you do, building value into and around it, you can make this kind of money. But most are out chasing the carrot, which is how they get rutted for life, doing nothing but kiddie shows and never really stepping up to the plate to the bigger and more challenging realms of professional entertainment. But I'll warn you all, it ain't easy and contrary to popular belief, it's not a 24 hour a day party.

It depends on how long I'm needed to perform for and what they want.
I also do comedy/music so if they want just that, it's a different fee and if they want a longer show with magic I charge more.

Careful Mikey, this sort of question always kicks up a bit of a wasp nest of uptightness Listen to Craig he knows what he's on about, problem is you're unlikely to get a straight answer when you ask people what they earn.

I've been tentatively pushing the mage work this year and I've had a couple of gigs with some more booked. The figure I've landed on at the moment is £100 an hour for me being there.

Now, I have a full time job anyway so the money is just a nice bonus. If I was to do the whole thing properly I'd do me research and so forth but currently I'm not advertising or anything like that, everything I've done so far has been through people that have seen me perform in the pub or something and have thought it would be nice to have me at their party or wedding etc. The figure I've quoted has always been accepted, no quibbles, probably because if we don't know how much we should be charging then hows the layperson supposed to know!

So that's what I've found so far but don't take it as anything other than a very rough guide from some early experimentation.

Think I understand now Criag, but you got the term wrong.

Some people are magic SLUTS, as they want to perform magic, even if they don't get paid, or have a lower charge.

Magic and mentalist WHORES, are ones who screw people for as much money as they can get. If you are poor, you don't deserve to be able to watch magic.

Top class people, in any trade or industry, can name their own figure, to a degree.

Complaining that people don't charge enough is rubbish. People will either choose quality or cheapness. Quality might just be the cheapest though, where the most expensive is c*** (not the best).

You seem to want most magicians to give up magic, leaving it to a few "world class" magicians.
So who are going to see them? In a few years time, if you had your way, nobody. Without magicians, or wannabie magicians, there will be no magic for the public. Push magic away from the public and what are you left with? People doing tricks, just that they might be world class at doing the tricks.

Mikey, you need to look and ask people in your area, both geographicaly and magicaly. You alone know if you have the experience and routine that will help you decide which end of the pay scale to use.

Darrel wrote:Think I understand now Criag, but you got the term wrong.

Some people are magic SLUTS, as they want to perform magic, even if they don't get paid, or have a lower charge.

Magic and mentalist WHORES, are ones who screw people for as much money as they can get. If you are poor, you don't deserve to be able to watch magic.

Top class people, in any trade or industry, can name their own figure, to a degree.[/quote

Ok... I like your perspective here...

Complaining that people don't charge enough is rubbish. People will either choose quality or cheapness. Quality might just be the cheapest though, where the most expensive is c*** (not the best).

Yes you are correct, but only by degree. I've seen some horrid performers out there charging outrageous rates simply because they had the money to create a potent press kit. I know of the opposite scenario as well... packaging is (sad to say) everything... but so is delivery. As Rick Maue says, "you haven't sold the client until they ask you back for the next gig..."

You seem to want most magicians to give up magic, leaving it to a few "world class" magicians.

So who are going to see them? In a few years time, if you had your way, nobody. Without magicians, or wannabie magicians, there will be no magic for the public. Push magic away from the public and what are you left with? People doing tricks, just that they might be world class at doing the tricks.

This one gets me totally confused...

What I'm saying is, people need to step up to the table and stop accepting half-measures in what they do. I'm saying that the magic clubs need to focus more on getting their members up to snuff vs. how many drinks can be drunk before the end of the meeting. I'm saying that magicians on the whole, need to actually start thinking a bit and seeing what allows others to be success (HINT: most of them focus on one thing, one area and in many instances, one single act that they do for years, rather than chasing everything that comes down the pike.)

I remember listening to Copperfield complain about how his Tv specials were a catalog for many, as to what new neat effects to buy for their up-coming season. He got tired of it and started locking down performance rights. Today, instead of mimicking David everyone is trying to be the next Blaine, Angel or Brown (though most will say that's not true... but look at the effects and books they own and why they have most of them.)

If some amazing card worker hit the public eye this week, doing nothing but cards and coins and no getting anywhere near Mentalism... just pure manipulation! How fast do you think the tide would turn?

Most will change their minds the instant they see something new and shiny on the horizon that's making someone else rich and famous. Few pause to realize that what they've seen is already out of date and agents aren't looking for clones. That's not to say that the clones won't get work, they will... at pennies on the dollar compared to what a solid "original" act will generate. But most are confident enough to take that route and chisel out new turf... most don't want to "try" as the case were, they want to play at it. That is why so many don't seek out critical guidance or hire someone with a hard theater background so as to help them refine what they are trying to create be it a comedy act or something more serious and dramatic.

Sure... I'd love to see the field diminish a bit. We have far too many folks that think having the ability to spell the words MAGICIAN or MENTALIST makes them one and that's simply not the case.

Thanks for clearing that up Craig.


I can now get rid of that picture of you as a whore that has been inside my head. You haven't got the figure for that miniskirt.

hey i have now problem with being called a whore, I'm dam proud of it.

like a whore i sell myself on the streets, in bars and clubs and within the general public, i turn tricks literaly into cash from bookings and i offer to put it all out if they pay, so yes I'm a whore and proud to be so.

i started doing kids parties for £50 then added disco's for £150 to build up my reputation in later years i was charging £350 a go for parties and up to a grand for navy days.
thease days charity work is done on a cost basis only and i charge £250 for a magic disco party and £50+ for magic depending on time and complexity, for uk / area prices thease are on the high end but if you want quality you have to pay for it.

Like it or not, the average human being could care less about magic and magic tricks; they give very little investment towards it e.g. little in way of perceived value.

This is very true. Compare magic to comedy, there are 150 comedy clubs in the UK, half of which are in London. Comedians will get paid anything from £40-£200 per gig. A top comedian working the circuit can earn £50K a year with a newish professional earning about £20K. TV and corporate work will obviously increase your annual income. The demand for open spots, (gigs that don't pay) is huge. Waiting time for a good club will be around 6 months. Comedy is popular and comedians pretty well respected.

Comedy clubs keep opening because there is demand, not only from customers to see comedians but from people wanting to perform comedy. There is very little demand for magic, either people wanting to see it or people performing it.

The public image of a comedian is of a guy in a comedy club or on TV, speaking his/her mind and getting laughs. The image of a magician is of a guy working cruise ships and the tables at TFI Fridays. With the best will in the world, in the entertainment hierarchy the two are miles apart. Most of the blame for this lies with magicians, many of whom have done little to promote magic outside of the insular world of magic itself.

Part of the problem is that while there is only one paying audience in comedy, in magic there is two. The primary audience are people like the members of this forum, those people regularly buying magic products and publications. The comparitively much smaller audience is the paying audience who watch magic performances.

If someone wants to be a comedian, they write a 5 minute spot and start phoning around for open spots. Live performance is there from the start - there is no comedy without it. When someone wants to be a magician, they feel the need to spend years buying books, DVDs, products and so forth before they even step out of the house. And when they come to perform, often it's not on a stage infront of a paying audience but via PDF or self-published book sold to other magicians.

The magic world gives little thought to those outside of it's borders, and regular people give little thought to magic. And so, the financial reward available to magicians is pretty low.