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Ok while I am on a role I have a question about learning from DVD or videos. How influential are these videos or DVDs in terms of someone's perfomance?

Bananafish and I were discussing this the other day and I raised this question about learning from this wonderful media. Does learning this way generate clones?

I only ask because some time back (On a Paul Daniels TV show) there was a performer called Bernard Beliss (spelling??) who performed a small trick using four jokers and the back of the cards change colour. Anyway I watched it several times worked out the method, went away made up the gimmick required came back and watched the video again to learn the routine. Now Bernard Beliss is French (I believe not sure, someone can sort me out on that I'm sure) but spoke English with a French accent. The problem was as I was learning the routine I found myself mumbling "We ave zee four jokerrz with zee four blue backs" or "now we ave zee blu an zee red". Unfortunately this means I cannot perform this routine without dropping back to the Inspector Clouseau way of speaking.

Not long after I then saw a young performer on the TV show This Morning performing a torn and restored card routine all wonderfully done but the patter (word for word) was that of another act I had seen at that time (can't remember who sorry).

So it just got me thinking how many Michael AAAAmmars (minus the laugh hopefully) or Daryls or Juan Tamarizs (forget that there is only one Juan Tamariz) are out there performing. Don't get me wrong I think it is great to see these top notch performers doing there stuff. So I refer back to my orginal question: How influential are these videos or DVDs on someone's performance?

Let me know your thoughts.

Well i think its great that we got magic dvds,But yes you do get some ppl that turn out to be clones,Walk talk eat sleep the same hehe.
I have olny been into magic for a wee bit and i see it all the time.
Its sad to see.
But im more of a book man myself,Reason being is that you get more bang for your bang and better detail.
For a newbie dvds and vids are good to see if you holding the cards right etc..etc.
But copying someone patter is one big joke if you ask me.
I have lernt its not the trick that makes the ppl go wow its the way you persent it.
Ok i might get flamed for saying this but look at blaine,He is not a very good magicain,BUT and i say BUT he is a actor that does magic.
Thats what sells a trick in my book,Maybe i am wrong but thats my take on it.

I would disagree (but note no flaming, we don't do that here!) that Blaine is not a good magician, he is technically proficient and the presentation is just as important as the method. The magic is not supposed to be what you do but what your spectator experiences and as such anyone who amazes someone with something that appears magical is a magician.

Regarding DVD's and patter it has never been a problem with me, I rarely use someone elses patter, and when I take inspiration from it it is usually just the storyline rather than a word for word copy. It might be easier to make an effect fit your style if you learn it from a book an work out the patter for yourself, but then there is the risk that those of us who find comin up with interesting and relevent patter perfrom the tricks with just a running comentary of what is happening (though this isn't always a bad technique).

I think watching other peoples performances is a fundamental part of learning magic, and the DVD/Video is a wonderful tool for doing just that.

For me one of the big advantages of using a DVD over a book is the fact that you usually do get to see the specific magician performing (incidentally if I had to make a choice I still prefer to own books rather than DVD's, but that's another topic that has already been discussed.

The Topic relating to the importance of the performance itself as being one of the (if not the main) ingredient in making a better more entertaining magician, has also been discussed, and in the same vein as that, we have also discussed, the concept of whether a magician is merely an actor playing the part of a magician.

Incidentally, taking all these discussions together for a second, I'll conclude that David Blaine is indeed a great magician, as that is how he is perceived by the layman. There may be many things to criticise about him, but (imo) you really can't take anything away from his actual magic performances (levitations aside).

Now, to get back to the main discussion point. Which I have conviniently forgot, so excuse me a sec whilst I re-read it again...

Oh yes, well as I already mentioned I think watching the performances is a fundamental way of learning magic and as important as the actual tricks and sleights themselves.

Personally I feel those most likely to fall into the trap fo emulating these heroes of magic too closely are only beginners who have yet to actually find their own style.

However even then, unless the beginner in question had for example only a set of Daryl tapes to learn from - it is likely that they will soon have to develop their own style anyway, otherwise they would end up doing their performance in a total mismatch of styles which would just be awful (not to mention Confusing to the audience).

I think it doesn't take long before we do naturally start developping our own styles, and performing in a way that works for us, and indeed this may be a partial emulation of our favourite performers, but then that will happen subconciously anyway.

I think in the case Midas Kid cited, about learning "ze four jokerz trick" with ze fronch accent, we are presented with a choice. Assuming we like ze trick very much and don't want to exclude it, then we either have to practice it totally with our own patter until we are confdent in performing it in the new way, or we just come up with a patterwise excuse for doing it that way. ie, I was in France the other week, and this waitier showed me a trick...

Anyway - Ive rambled on so much, Ive forgotton any point I was going to make. Sometimes I think I'm just like a goldfish, and only have a 60 second memory.

I think that part of the learning process is watching, copying, then making it your own. Apprenticeship - the old way of learning magic, was probably like this. You watched, you copied, then when you were mature in what you were doing you made it your own. It's not a bad thing - the learner must just be aware that the end goal is to be themselves and not a clone.
So - I think dvd's/videos are an incredible tool in that it allows guys like me to be able to be taught by the masters - but the ultimate goal is obviously for me to become a master - when the things i do are my way of doing it ........ one day

By all means base your patter on the original but don't try to learn it word for word. a) It won't sound natural as it's someone else's style and b) you might forget an important part anyway. It's enough of a job concentrating on what you're doing without having to remember someone else's words - use you own and develop it as you go along - far easier and more enjoyable!

Now that is something I would pay money to see a D.B. teaching video. Everyone says David Roth is dull.

Imagine a D.B. vid it would be like 4 hours long to teach just ooooonnnne lllliiiittttllle mmmmaaaagggiiic ttttrrrriiiiic. That is if he decided to speak of course. He teaching technique would probably consist staring out of the screen trying to do the lecture via telepathy.

LOL - that's really funny

The great thing about finding your own style is that you'll be able to take a trick that someone has seen performed before, like my David Blaine, Turn it round (just add words) and it's a completly new effect.

Well I'm a big DVD fan, since in the past we have discussed and agreed that performance is the major part of a trick and since performance needs to be seen to really understand it, then DVDs are by far a better method. Now I know some people that haven't really thought it through will disagree but logic dictates I'm right.

Heck it's obvious I can better show you a trick/performance by videoing myself than trying to write about what I did. Though books do have the advantage of usually containing more tricks.

I agree that copying right down to the accent is likely to be done only by a beginner and is no bad thing up to the point you develop your own style. If you really want to be original, don't watch any DVD,s or read any books and go off to the jungle and invent your own magic. Anyhow most originality is actually a version of something that has gone before.

I was guilty of copying patter word for word when I started doing magic & in someways I think it's limited me now, I sometimes struggle to think up "orriginal" patter for tricks & due to this I stayed away from DVD/Video for a while, but I recently purchased a DVD (review to follow soon) & learning from Michael Ammar was a pleasure & I know that I won't be copying his routine word 4 word, but using the Ideas.

I still don't entirely agree, but since I obviously haven't thought it out properly I'll go away and do that then get back to you later

No, I've thought about it again and still don't entirely agree! If you have developed a style of your own to an extent that you are not going to use the style of the performer on a DVD then you have reached a stage at which you must be thinking up your own presentations. Therefore you are perfectly capable of thinking up a presentation for an effect which comes with none, ie written in a book.

An eloquent writer can express himself as well in a book as they could on a dvd, and hence it can be learned from. I will agree that if a book is not well written it can be a challenge to understand but it is usually translatable.

Personally I have never had any problems at all learning from books, even without diagrams, but am happy to use either medium as applicable.

lol
tickled me that

99.9% of the dvds/videos I have seen are by Americans/nutters/people far more advanced than me or the the most boring men in the world. I don't see how you could turn yourself into any of them without making yourself look a little silly here in the UK, we just work differently.

I guess handling and story lines might be copied but once you are at the stage of having or wanting to string along effects into a longer routine you simply have to change all that about or it looks disjointed and doesn't flow from one trick to another.

So I guess when you are new to magic you might copy more than you would like but that isn't a bad thing, these guys are masters of the art after all but as you get to a stage where you can actualy entertain well by its very nature it changes a lot to your style

You soon find at your cost, I guess, that if you aren't already a Jay Sankey character yet try and perform like him the effects fall flat on their chubby bum, just my two coins

Well, the video/DVD versus books question is a matter of personal preference, and since it seems that many magicians who want to share their work, though technically brilliant, are poor techers through either medium it is a matter of which you find easier to decipher!