Money talks

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Money talks

Postby taneous » Feb 16th, '04, 13:52



Ok - this is a bit of a whine, but it's something I've thought about for a while. I've ben taking magic seriously for a little while now and the thing is, it's costing me a fortune. Now It's money i've chosen to spend and I don't mind spending it - it's just that it seems that a lot of magic is just about the money. For instance - take our 'golden rule' of not exposing secrets. It should be amended to say 'never expose a secret for free'. I was watching someone perform the other day, and the table he was peforming for offered him a decent amount of money to explain to them how he did what he did. He didn't think twice. Afterwards he justified it by saying it's he's living. I'm not too sure what i would do in that situation, but the point I'm trying to make, is that the minute money comes into the equation the whole secret thing seems to go out the window. I don't have to know a thing about magic - but if i have enough of the green stuff I can walk in to a magic shop and buy whatever secret i want. I'm struggling bit to say what I mean here - but it does seem a bit hypocritical doesn't it?
I know that magic is not so much about the secret, but the performance, but this whole thing does bug me a bit.

I'd love to know how all of you feel???

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Postby bananafish » Feb 16th, '04, 14:37

An interesting question.

a) Is for example RRTCM an exposure of secrets and should be banned?
b) If it was free, and was given away in book shops, would it then be classed as exposure?
c) How about if the contents were described and demonstrated in detail on a TV show?

Well, I think most would aggree that c) is exposure and a) is not, but is the distinction purely monetary?

If it was exposed on TV, that means it is being broadcast to potenially millions of viewers who may just stumble across that particular channel accidentally. So in this case it must be exposure.

It has to be remembered that anyone who has a desire to learn how a magic trick is done, can and will learn. They will find a book, or they will join a magic club and ask someonme - but this surely can't be deemed as exposure as they - the "layman" are making an effort to learn the secrets.

I think exposure comes from magic being thrust upon peopel who aren't willing to make that effort. People who don't show the commitment to find out.

The example with the Magic club is a good one, as anyone joing a magic club in the first plae is likely to have to do an audition. Which again shows more commitment on their part.

So the question, "is it ethical for a magician to reveal a secret for a price?" is quite a good one.

If the same magician advertised a course in magic, and the same spectators came along. Would that make it any more right or wrong?

Maybe it makes it more ok, because the spectators would need to show some commitment by actually turning up.

Personally I'd say the magician wasn't being ethical by showing the spectators how the tricks worked for a price, but then you have to ask yourself if it was you, and you were offered £10 you may say "no". Would you still say "No" if you were offerend "£100"? How about £1000? £10000?

Does this make us all Magic prostitutes?

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Postby BaBaBoom » Feb 16th, '04, 14:52

I'd do it for a fiver and a pint a Guinness :!:

No, wait, I mean I wouldn't :!:

It is an interesting question indeed, it is weird this whole thing of the code and I am firmly against the guarding of information in the real world, yet want being a magician to stay special, it makes my head spin.
No, wait, that's Guinness again.

I think if we are being honest making videos available freely to the public via thousands of easily found websites is against the code, but then if the code wasn't broken I wouldn't know anything.

So within myself I have no easy answer, was he wrong to show the tricks?
From a magis point of view yes, from the real world, has to feed his kids and he wants an ipod then no.

So in short, don't ask meeeeeee it makes my head hurt :)
Yes magic costs far more than I like.

Interesting.
BaB

...
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Postby nickj » Feb 16th, '04, 14:57

I the situation mentioned th performer was offered money to expose a trick.in this case the trick fell into the lap of the spectator, he didn't require to put any effort into finding out how it was done. I think that the magician in question probably shouldn't have done it. If I was offered money at a perfromance I would refuse it, if however, someone appraoched me and asked for a lesson then I would accept the money as in that case they are putting some effort in to come and see me. Not sure if there is much of a difference or where the line lies here.

Cogito, ergo sum.
Cogito sumere potum alterum.
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Postby Happy Toad » Feb 16th, '04, 15:06

Yup definitely a tricky one and cos I'm not sure I think I might give my wallet the benefit of the doubt.
At the end of the day how much commitment is shown by ordering a video to explain how the tricks are done? In my opinion not a lot. So if the price is right which can be argued is a level of commitment and it's your living then.... On the other hand it does feel a bit wrong.... Ohhh now my head s hurting.

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Postby Midas Kid » Feb 16th, '04, 15:13

I think it was odd for the magician in question to say its how he earnt his money, but then again we all have our price. Unfortunately for some people just knowing is enough.

The other question that would arise from this would be the legallity of revealing a secret. Just because you have gone into a shop and paid for a secret do you have the right to show someone elses method to the audience?

All though sometimes (as we all know) if it is an incredibly complicated routine with some real knuckle busting moves you almost want to show the audience the "behind the scenes" stuff. It is almost better than the trick itself.

I don't think I would ever reveal the secret of a gimmick as there is no way of varying the method it you want to fool them again. Maybe I would give them some plausible hocus pocus method. Then show the trick again. I love the whole idea of leading the audience down the garden path only to close the gate on them.

But the real problem is that it will spoil it for other magi when they perform the same miracle. It is a bit like the comedian on stage telling jokes only to have a heckler supplying all the punch lines.

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Postby Happy Toad » Feb 16th, '04, 15:20

Still I don't think anyone has the right to say any particular route is wrong or indeed right, since there is no standard by which we can all agree. If we had all signed up to some magicians code that gave clear guidelines, there would be no issue. As it is, we are all judging by our own particular standards and who can say that their standards are any more right than someone elses?

P.S the Spec buying a vid could be more damaging, since it's likely more Laymen will see it, plus it will have more secrets in it. On the other hand if you don't show him, chances are he wouldn't buy a vid.

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Postby Midas Kid » Feb 16th, '04, 15:38

Most people can't be arsed about magic 99% of the time. It is only when they are being shown something they suddenly want to know how it is done. Five minutes later they wouldn't care if you had shown them the method or not.

Fortunately it is only magi that are willing (or daft) to pay £30 for a DVD or video.

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Postby taneous » Feb 16th, '04, 15:54

The way the guy explained the trick was really clever - he really focused on the psychological aspect of it and added how that can be applied to marketing (it was a table of businessmen) - he eventually had them asking for his card to do workshops on communication - so all round he really made it worth his while :)
Thanks for all the replies - some interesting stuff

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Postby Happy Toad » Feb 16th, '04, 15:57

Right then I definitely think he did the right thing. Of course like I said that's just my opinion :)

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Postby Part-Timer » Feb 16th, '04, 18:54

I'm not sure I would have revealed the secret then and there.

I think it might have been better to say, "Book me for your event and I'll have a word with you beforehand."

I suppose they might not have paid up if he'd done that, but it sends out the message that you can't just throw money and expect to be told.

I think one of the things that distinguishes exposure from teaching is the reason behind it. If the person is paying money just because he is curious, then revealing the secret is not too good. If they are buying a (say) DVD because they want to learn, that's OK.

Now, there's nothing to stop someone who is merely curious from ordering from a magic shop, or visiting one. However, that still takes a bit of effort. You must research what you want to find out about, track down a place that sells the effect, buy it, read the instructions and understand it. None of those apply to someone who says, "I'll give you £100 if you tell me how you did that."

However, there really is no hard-and-fast rule and I am not going to get preachy about it.

I am reminded of the story (no idea if it's true) allegedly about George Bernard Shaw and a young lady. I might get the precise words, or even amounts wrong, but the idea is the same.

GBS "Would you sleep with me for £10,000?"

YL "Yes."

GBS "Would you sleep with me for £10?"

YL "Of course not! What kind of girl do you think I am?"

GBS "My dear, we have already established what kind of girl you are; now we are merely trying to set the price."

:lol:

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