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Yes indeed, if it's raw magic, and one can't present it, one is buggered.

There is entertaining and there is entertaining one can all ways appeal to the lowest common dominator. Not to say we have to be has high brow like ballet but if we want to lose the stigmatism attached to magic we have to strive forward and not back.

Take Lady of mystery’s routine this is entertaining to the same people who find butlins entertainers entertaining I am sure it’s a very good routine but I must agree with the man Marvell on this its sugar coated.. On the other hand there is many a good routine set to music etc. take Jeff McBride but he has mastered the art of showmanship. It is a crying shame that these classic books on magic don’t involve a showmanship section.

I was in a hotel in Devon a couple of years back and the all round jack of all trades entertainer done a bit of presdigation one night. It was cringe worthy out he come in sparkly jacket and “Was this your card? Thank you” standing in his applause pose. I think he set the art back 30 years on his own.

Of course sometimes it all goes wrong. But if you can gloss over it in an entertaining way then you will win the battle, magic and this may upset a few people is considered a 3rd rate art if an art at all.
I think it was a scene in family guy that said :


“no don’t forget your order of performing arts. Legit theatre, musical theatre, dance, magic , mime”

But how should we be moving forward? From what I've read, I get the feeling that people think that there is only one correct route. Why should that be? Music, dance, art all have their different sub categroies and there are fans of each of those different categories.

I personally really enjoy writing, choreographing and performing music and dance based magic routines. I think it makes people laugh and have a good time and that's what I'm interested in doing. Perphaps I should just go and apply for my Red Coat now

I'm not interested in being all dark and dry, it's not something I enjoy doing and it doesn't appeal to me.

I'm not saying that there's not a place for it, of course there is. There's a place for everything, even my Butlins style routines. But it's all down to presentation and performance.

Lomy monster I am sure you would make an excellent red coat But people have decided that magic is cheesy and lame. I am sure your routine will go down well for certain audiences and that’s a good thing you are giving your people what they want as we all should. If that’s the magic you like doing and people like seeing you do then more power to your elbow.

On the other hand what is good for the goose is not always good for the gander. Nyman makes the point when he has some one on stage the fist thing he says is “its ok I want embarrass you” now why should he have to say this? Because magicians in the past and even now have got people up and performed at them and insulated them for the cheap laugh. Ok the joke on the magician is good take Tommy cooper but I doubt he would get far today. I like to think there are 3 types of audience :


1) non responsive don’t like magic. Never will do.
2) the lowest common denominator style of audience. Types that find people like Les Denis funny
3) Your high brow types. Would like to know how its done but are too polite to ask

Personally I don’t mind the 2nd one but I love the 3rd one. One is a losing battle but if you can win them over then you are a better person then I. that’s another thing the audience we have are we performing too sophisticated routines are too low brow for them? Of course there are some routines are that transcends the audience type but its better to know your audience first I fell.

Lady of Mystery wrote:I personally really enjoy writing, choreographing and performing music and dance based magic routines. I think it makes people laugh and have a good time and that's what I'm interested in doing.

And that's where the distinction lies. Many of us do not want to make people "laugh and have a good time". Saying that, not all of us want to be dark. There is bright magic which is still magic in the first instance, not magic as a secondary issue.

Markdini wrote:I like to think there are 3 types of audience :

1) non responsive don’t like magic. Never will do.
2) the lowest common denominator style of audience. Types that find people like Les Denis funny
3) Your high brow types. Would like to know how its done but are too polite to ask

Personally I don’t mind the 2nd one but I love the 3rd one. One is a losing battle but if you can win them over then you are a better person then I. that’s another thing the audience we have are we performing too sophisticated routines are too low brow for them? Of course there are some routines are that transcends the audience type but its better to know your audience first I fell.

Similarly, I like to perform routines which do not insult people's intelligence. I'd never perform to anyone who thought Les Denis was funny.

Lets face it the mind magic I do isn’t really going to suit the “Les Denis” brigade. How many times do you see Derren performing for persons in pink t-shirts and too much gold? You don’t do you I am not saying they are not a good audience say for an ACR but the type of stuff I do they are not. Does it make me a snob? No I choose the right people for the right effects. This is also a serious aspect to presentation do you think not?

Maybe this is also a problem we present ourselves to the wrong people stylistically and magic wise. I know it is easy to run in with your newest effect but are you performing this to the right people?

Like any artform there is a style and different audience for every demographic. Some will always seem more valid or artistic than others but personally each indivdual performer should stay true with how they want to represent themselves to their audience.

All performance should be an attempt to connect with your audience and entertain them and I feel this can only be done by staying true to who you are and how you would like to be entertained whether that be sparkly jacket and bottled suntan or dark eyeliner and leather pants.
The judge in the long run to how good or bad you are is determined by the public and whether or not they like what you do.
As far as rallying magicians together I feel the only thing to rally is not the call to arms but the call to creative freedom.
Many of the bad magic acts I've seen seem to have stuck tightly to old cliches and are no longer performing an act that represents who they are. Either that or it just wasnt my bag. It's all down to a matter of taste.
Also we need to realise that many of the public have never seen live magic either in the theatre or close up so for most tv has been their only exposure.
And as with most performance there is a hell of a difference between Tv and Live.

but why do you assume that dance and music based routines have to involve silly wastecoats and spinning bow ties?

They don't. They can be funny, they can be classy, they can be sexy, they can be just about anything that you want them to be and if performed in the right way, can appeal to just about any audience.

good post greedoniz, exactly what I've been trying to say but in so much better words than me

I must say the esteemed gentleman makes some valid points. Lets go with the cliché of connection with your audenece to do this you must brake down there barriers and let them warm to you. Greasy looking fake tan is going to make people very closed to you , unless you perform to that type of people there are loads of them around.

We can also get lost in our creativity and think we are pushing boundaries at the same time. Take Lommy monsters sponge routine I cant really comment on it I have not seen it. It will probably be good if it is sexy and classy I don’t know how sponges can be sexy and classy but she has found a way I salute her. On the other hand it could be a lass prancing about in a leotard with little bits of sponge in her hands. Both version will be entertaining to some people but not all. Has she pushed the boundries of her performance? I will say yes. But has she pushed them in the right way? I cant comment because I have not seen it.

Presentation and the magic should go hand in hand it should be one and the same thing. You are as much the magic as the cards. Its easy to work hard at something and think its great go out there and perform and every one hates it , its part and parcel of the creative process.

Lady of Mystery wrote:They can be funny, they can be classy, they can be sexy, they can be just about anything that you want them to be and if performed in the right way, can appeal to just about any audience.

How about "magic"? I want magic to be magic!

In the case of "funny" is it primarily a comedy act or a magic act?

Marvell wrote:

Lady of Mystery wrote:They can be funny, they can be classy, they can be sexy, they can be just about anything that you want them to be and if performed in the right way, can appeal to just about any audience.

How about "magic"? I want magic to be magic!

In the case of "funny" is it primarily a comedy act or a magic act?

Why feel the need to attach labels to what one does? The important question really is 'Does it entertain and do you feel fulfilled performing it?'

Any strict adherence to genre or structing prevents freedom to express.

At the end of the day if people have a bad attitude towards magic as a spectator then forget them. Perform what you like to perform and if you are any good an audience will present itself

Marvell wrote:I want magic to be magic!

That is a perception, you perceive a particular style to be more magic than other styles. But the main job of a magician is to entertain an audience.

Some people might be entertained by what you do and some would be entertained by what I do, why should there be a 'this is right the right road and this is the wrong road' attitude?

If you were a Britain's Got Talent judge, you'd probabaly buzz me in the first 3 seconds, but then on the other hand I'd probabaly buzz you if you started doing gambling/poker type magic.

Everyone seems to be saying that people should develop and perform their own style but then in the next line I hear that certain styles are rubbish and shouldn't be performed.

As for the sponge ball routine I mentioned, that's neither an elegant or sexy routine, it's never meant to be, it's a comedy routine. And I don't mean sexy by performing by prancing around wearing next to nothing. That's just as bad as the silly waistcoat and spinning bow tie.

As magicians we need to appeal to all walks of life, there has to be something for everyone.

I agree that magic is cheesy and a bit naff. Not always, but it is on the whole. On the whole magicians are pretty naff and on the whole I would say I that I don't like the typical magician. I am always very wary of falling into that cheesy, c*** (not the best) magician hole. As far as BGT goes, well they are looking for a particular type of act, that to be honest is probably out of the reaches of most magicians given the time they have to perform on stage.

We can't stop magicians from being c*** (not the best), all we can do is try to be the best magicians we can.