talkmagic.co.uk

A lot of the effects I perform I have figured out by watching demos, or been inspired by various other effects. I'm always low on cash, which is quite annoying, so if I have figured out an effect, or figured out a "way" of performing it, am I going to go out and buy it? No.

All of the effects I perform have been made my "own" Whether I've changed a slieght, changed the patter, mixed a couple of effects together etc.

It's very hard for me to watch a card effect these days, and actually not figure it out. I try to watch and enjoy it, but my brain just automatically picks up on things

Out of interest, Mikey, do you think what you're doing is right? You seem to state it as a fact that because you can't afford something you have the right to perform it without buying it. But this isn't so. You COULD earn money. You could get a part-time job. You could take the magic you know and perform to bring in some more money.

Or maybe you already have a job but your money gets spent on other things, in which case tough! That still does not give you the right to perform the effect without performing it.

If it sounds like I'm annoyed then it's because I am, with attitudes like this. If it sounds unjustified then it's not - several of my friends are creators. If you knew the effort it took to put into putting something out on the market, even something as simple as a little booklet, you'd appreciate just how hard it can be at the best of times.

beeno - you are quite right. I don't think it is really possible to draw a hard line on matters like this. Of course, it can be interesting tracing the history of an effect back to its creator and deciding from there.

Is there a difference in whether you perform the trick in return for money, or free for your friends?

Is it the same as a recipe from a restaurant? I ate a fantastic beetroot and chocolate cake with black pepper ice cream in a glasgow restaurant a few years ago, and have since managed to re-create a version of it. Can I serve it to friends at a dinner party? Can I serve it to paying customers in a restaurant? Can I call it my own, as it is my recipe, if not my idea?

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing at all, meerly posing a question.

I am getting a part time job. Soon, hopefully

So I will be buying more DVDs etc. But I have bouht RRTCM. I have learnt various sleights form there. A lot of effects today are built using sleights from RRTCM. So if I have bought RRTCM and learnt those sleights, and I notice that a certain effect uses those sleights. Why can't I perform it? I have, in a way, bought it.

Music gets played on the radio, which we listen to. We haven't bought that music But we listen to it.

Mikey.666 wrote:Music gets played on the radio, which we listen to. We haven't bought that music But we listen to it.

The artist gets paid every time it's broadcast or performed. For Radio 1 it's £20.35 per minute. Radio 4 is £25.13. Virgin is only a quid a minute.

beeno wrote:

Mikey.666 wrote:Music gets played on the radio, which we listen to. We haven't bought that music But we listen to it.

The artist gets paid every time it's broadcast or performed. For Radio 1 it's £20.35 per minute. Radio 4 is £25.13. Virgin is only a quid a minute.

thats why the bar stewards talk so much

Without people taking the same basic concept but morphing it slightly has contributed to magic for many years. Passes and false cuts have been created by people not knowing or wanting to create a new move to get the same effect. In reality, I would not claim these tricks yours. But rather claim the concept to the author but the performance to yourself. Like previously mentioned looking at something and trying to figure out how it works has moved magic in a good direction. I say figure out all you can. Just please don't post solutions on youtube such sites and don't look for them either.
Thanks

AceofHearts wrote: Just please don't post solutions on youtube such sites and don't look for them either.
Thanks

Here here, I think that is by far the most important point.

Mikey.666 wrote:A lot of the effects I perform I have figured out by watching demos, or been inspired by various other effects. I'm always low on cash, which is quite annoying, so if I have figured out an effect, or figured out a "way" of performing it, am I going to go out and buy it? No.

All of the effects I perform have been made my "own" Whether I've changed a slieght, changed the patter, mixed a couple of effects together etc.

I don't have any problem with someone working out how to do a trick and then performing 'his' version. After all, he may be using a completely different method. What I find far more bothersome is that someone will take an 'established' trick, presumably which someone is marketing, change some small detail and then sell it as their own. Apart from the fact that I might buy the 'new version' when I already know what the trick is (perhaps because the description given misleads) surely it's plaigarism?

PhiltheBear

This is a very morally charged debate (which we've had several times in the past....)

I would say that if you BY CHANCE learn the method by watching the demo, you could (morally) show your friends - but that's about it. Earning money from said effect is unquestionably immoral.

I would also say one should feel a little guilty about PURPOSELY watching demo videos specifically to try to figure out the effect. At that point you are actively seeking to obtain something without paying for it - regardless of your level of intuition and magical knowledge.

I watch the demo videos for new marketed effects now and then to see if I like the effect and want to buy it. That's it.... ONCE during this process I saw something that was really obvious a demo vid of a Jay Sankey effect. I think it's really unfair that it wasn't Jay himself who did the demo, and maybe because of bad performance or unintelligent camera handling the method was tipped off. I have not ever performed this effect. I think it's unfortunate that a demo vid on a website done by "some guy" would tip off the method and hurt sales from the actually creator and/or seller of the effect. If the seller includes such a video, then it serves them right, but unfortunately hurts the creator in the process.

Mikey.666 wrote:So I will be buying more DVDs etc. But I have bouht RRTCM. I have learnt various sleights form there. A lot of effects today are built using sleights from RRTCM. So if I have bought RRTCM and learnt those sleights, and I notice that a certain effect uses those sleights. Why can't I perform it? I have, in a way, bought it.

You've bought the ABILITY to perform it. But you haven't bought the EFFECT itself.

It's like if I arrive home with a bundle of car parts I have bought, whatever they may be - everything you would need to build a car. Sure, these have the POTENTIAL to be a car, but they're not a car. I would need to go to a specialist to have them put together to become a car - and it is only right that I pay him for his time and expertise.

Exactly the same with an piece of magic. You are paying somebody for the time and effort they have put into creating the effect, not to mention test-driving it for you. Would you be performing it in this way if it weren't for them? Impossible to say, but it is very unlikely. Your performing of this effect is dependent upon their piecing together of various elements, and you owe them for this.

An piece of magic's worth does not lie in its sleights or mechanics but rather in the way in which they are put together.

So no, buying one or two instructional books and learning various moves does not give you the right to perform any card effect utilising them without paying for it.

The worst thing is, by learning off a you tube video or suchlike, you miss out on all the little performances tips that are just as essential to an effect as the main moves. It's only going to encourage a spate of bad magicians whose methods can be spotted by even the least astute of laymen (and laywomen).

Cardza wrote:You've bought the ABILITY to perform it. But you haven't bought the EFFECT itself.

Point taken.

Cardza wrote:You've bought the ABILITY to perform it. But you haven't bought the EFFECT itself.

It's like if I arrive home with a bundle of car parts I have bought, whatever they may be - everything you would need to build a car. Sure, these have the POTENTIAL to be a car, but they're not a car. I would need to go to a specialist to have them put together to become a car - and it is only right that I pay him for his time and expertise.

But if you're a car building specialist yourself, there's nothing stopping you from putting one together, surely?

From what I've read, figuring out or even down right stealing other people's effects and methods has been going on since the beginning of magic. It might not be right, but I can't see it stopping any time soon.

In the internet age I think a magician who has an effect to sell needs to weigh up profit with secrecy. You could make a limited run and sell it to a select group of respected magicians who can be trusted to not give anything away, or you could make it available to the general public, complete with fancy marketing and demo videos. It might make you more money that way, but you also have to accept that people will try to figure it out.

No one is forced to make a demo video.

nameless wrote:But if you're a car building specialist yourself, there's nothing stopping you from putting one together, surely?

Very true, you wouldn't need anybody else to do it for you - i.e. you could create your own magic, independently of anybody else, and by your own design.

It may not be the perfect analogy, but the underlying point remains the same.

You are right, it's been going on since forever, and it probably won't stop anytime soon. But I will keep arguing this side of the debate, that it is wrong, in the hope that some people will listen or, at the very least, avoid assuring others that what they are doing is okay (when it isn't).