talkmagic.co.uk

AndyRegs wrote:He is not saying that he uses tricks as 'proof' of gods power.

But undoubtedly some people WILL walk away with that impression whether it was stated or not.

If you mix your magic with good old fashioned witchcraft and voodoo it's much more believable.
A lot of cultures believe in magic and I have found, from my experience, that Eastern Europeans, Africans and Asians all have a firm mythology of magic woven into their culture. Muslims are also meant to believe that black magic does exist but they are not allowed to practice it.

I have never performed for Hare Krishna's so I'm not sure what their viewpoint is in all this.

Pushing the vulgar self-publicists e-book aside, there are actually two books called 'Spiritual Applications For Tarbell' which presents the effects in the first two volumes of the Tarbell Course in a biblical context. I don't know if they are any good, as being a fully fledged High Priest of The Chimp Worshipping Illuminati, we are forbidden to read such things.

As has already been mentioned, threads on Faith, Religion and similar strongly held personal beliefs tend to go off the rails one way or another and we've either locked, moved or deleted dozens in the past 12 months or so. To be on the safe side, the original post has had the freebie advert removed, as per normal actions under these circumstances, and a duplicate post has already been moved out of sight.

If we can carry on this thread with great care and consideration for other people's feelings then it would be a good opportunity to debate an important topic. Can I suggest that we just write to explain our individual feelings without automatically criticising or disrespecting statements in other posts? If anyone needs to flame someone else's point of view to support their own then the argument is already lost and this thread will probably disappear into the vaults never to be seen again.

themagicwand wrote:I wonder what God makes of me?

In reply dat8962 wrote:Mandrake think's that you're OK but need to practice your muscle reading a little more

And if anyone doesn't believe that I'll put the fear of me in them !

With regard to disclaiming whether you have real powers or not I heard an anecdote of what famed American mentalist Gil Eagles does. It seems that when people come up afterwards to ask where he got his power instead of all the usual tosh about body language, psychology and intuition Gil simply says "oh, It's all a trick!" When they look aghast at this and again plead for his source of psychic inspiration he replies "I have no power. I just told you it is nothing more than a magic trick!" or words to that effect.

I must admit it made me laugh. It is the most unpretentious thing I have ever heard.

Mandrake wrote:As has already been mentioned, threads on Faith, Religion and similar strongly held personal beliefs tend to go off the rails one way or another ... ....If we can carry on this thread with great care and consideration for other people's feelings then it would be a good opportunity to debate an important topic. Can I suggest that we just write to explain our individual feelings without automatically criticising or disrespecting statements in other posts?

Brilliant. I'll put the kettle on.

Cuppa anyone?

Brilliant. I'll put the kettle on.

Large mug of coffe please 3 sugars (I am still on my diat) Ans only 5 hob nobs please...

Milk?

I have Hob-Nobs.

Marvo Marky wrote:I have Hob-Nobs.

You can get some ointment on the NHS for that.

Mandrake wrote:

Marvo Marky wrote:I have Hob-Nobs.

You can get some ointment on the NHS for that.

Yes it's all the dunking I've been doing.

Josh Clarke wrote:But undoubtedly some people WILL walk away with that impression whether it was stated or not.

It depends what sort of effects you do. and the audience. If you're doing a card trick that happens to involve, say faith, hope and charity written on jumbo cards, to an audience in the UK, I doubt anyone will mistake that for a miracle.

However, there was a recent story about a preacher in Africa suspected of using the 'Electric Touch' device to make it look like he had powers.

I have also read of missionaries using 'Gospel magic' and I had a nagging doubt that this might not always be used merely to illustrate Christianity. As Lord Freddie said, some cultures still think that magic is real, and I think I.D. posted something about being brought up to reject magic.

I find it ironic just how many famous magicians were seminary students and in some instances retired ministers or in a few other cases I'm aware of, working Evangelists that employed stage magic as a vehicle for spreading the Gospel message. In fact that was seen as being highly honorable and common practice well into the early and mid 1970s when a certain angry gent and failed magician from Canada hit the scene, trying to revive Houdini's old gambit about debunking Psychics... funny, how this "above board and honest gent" got run out of his native Canada and at least three major U.S. cities due to both, his big mouth and his inability to not proposition lads between 12 and 16 in the back room of this or that magic shop... but I digress...

With the advent of this "mans" surfacing and stealing a few headlines a newer and louder voice started surfacing in magic along side the LIE within certain academic circles that basically said, "If your are really intelligent and well studied then you know there is no such thing as God..." (or something to that flavoring). This say bogus philosophy seeping deeply into the world of magic to the point that certain personalities are more or less encouraging any and all that study this art form to denounce the family faith and embrace Atheism in full... some, even members of this very forum, believe anyone doing otherwise is a "Nutter" or "Idiot" or "Fool" or pick any similar term, I've been referred to by all of these terms and worse because I will stand up for a person's beliefs.

Most of my critics fail to remember that I am very much a Skeptic and unlike the majority of them, I actually get into the field and investigate rather than reading books and regurgitating what I'm told to believe and what it what for this or that Cynic's club. True investigators will ALWAYS look at things far differently than the armchair experts and they are not as calloused or of the opinion that all is black & white, as the arrogant overly studied with book knowledge vs. LIFE.

I have no problem with anyone faith so long as they just keep it to themselves and aren't trying to cram it up everyone else's tukkiss. Too, I have no problem as long as you are not exploiting known psychological and physiological techniques so as to manipulate the patron and create the air of co-dependence. In short, I'm very anti-Organized Religion especially when we move into the practice of "Miracles"... though I know such things do exist I also KNOW how many ministers exploit TTs, cold reading techniques and more... I grew up and that world and refused to be so cruel and corrupt.

Just because you like magic does not mean that you must sell your soul to the Atheist Agenda certain folks feel obliged to promote. Know that they will make your life hell and if you are too outspoken about your faith they will make it a point to set jokes outward at your expense, so make certain you have a thick skin along side a solid sense of spiritual conviction for the journey in this fellowship can be quite upsetting.

Now that I've said that, there are Christian, Catholic, Jewish and even Pagan Societies within the Magic world. You'll have to look around to find them but they exist... the Magic Cafe is inundated by right-winged American Christians as one example and has a huge section dedicated to Gospel Magic. There have been others out there that were nothing but Christian Magic Fellowships but for some odd reason, I'm not all that familiar with them

Look around and you can find such groups but when you are within the general realms of magic in which such sanctuary is not evident, tread carefully or be prepared for a bit of hell.

I know who Craig is referring to when he mentions a "failed magician from Canada"

I have also heard rumours similar to the allegations stated. However it seems to be anecdotal and I would prefer to see hard evidence before blackening the man's name.

I would certainly not call him a failed magician either. In his day he was quite successful.

I do find him over zealous in his pursuit of psychics and he is certainly biased and nobody could say he has an open mind. I also often wonder if his crusade is based on genuine distaste for those who claim to be psychic or whether it is based on blatant opportunism since he seems to make a career out of debunkery. And his tactics have not always been as ethical as they should be.

In fact I recently heard a strange story that I do not necessarily believe but I will give it for what it is worth. Somebody I know told me that he knew someone that worked for this wicked debunker. This person was in the room when an alleged phone call from a certain Israeli psychic superstar phoned. The debunker and the psychic were known as avowed enemies. However according to the story the two spoke as if they were the best of friends and the purpose of the phone call was to discuss tactics in the allegedly fake feud.

Fake feuds between psychics and debunkers are not unknown so I would not be surprised if this turned out to be true. But on the other hand I just plain don't know. I wish I had spoken to the witness who was in the room rather than hearing it second hand.

I have met this debunker person and he is terribly amusing and charismatic in person. When I told him that I was a psychic he winked and said "Shhh. We cannot be seen together!"

The term Gospel (truth) Magic (deception) is an oxy-moron verbage. Most gospel magic Iv'e seen performed, if you know your Bible stories then you know where the trick is going and you begin to get ahead of the performer. After a few minutes I can be distracted by the sound of yawning. Is it a posibility that the magic we do actually creates a conflict in their belief system. I know that there is conventions just for Gospel Magicians(Pacific Coast of American Christians Magicians) where they go to learn how to do that kind of magic. It draws those who wish to do that kind of magic and I guess thats alright but I am more comfortable doing magic in all the other venues that are not religious. I even incountered people in resturants that when you approach them to do magic, they say, "No thankyou, we are christians!" Thats usally enough to not want to do Gospel magic.
Anyway, maybe I should cancel my life insurance and get fire insurance instead. I'll need the coverage.
Cheers
Al

I once wished to place an advert in the local church hall for kids shows. I was warned that as the congregation had a large african element it may be taken as a black magic service as they once had a problem in this area before. They just asked to make sure my wording was correct and unambiguouse. This story shows that any half decent vicar knows that magic is both harmfull and harmless dependent on its delivery.
The fellowship of christian magicians in england consist of performers who do both secular and christian magic. They are very very carefull about how they present. Most are family entetainers. From the ones I have met I would be almost sure that they would spot any dodgy goings on and warn the offending magi of problems he may be about to cause even if unintentionaly.
As for raming religeon down peoples throats. Well I go to church and on the odd occasion someone will ask me why. So I tell them quite simply in about two lines.... " I use it as a kind of self help book in order to have a better live for myself and others around me, at the moment I'm afraid it's not going that good "
Thats all I say and guess what I am accused later of ramming it down their thoats. By writting this some reading will accuse me of the same.
People ask me a question. I answer as quickly and humbly as possible. I am accused of being pushy.
This is why I keep my answers short, very short.
It is sadly the same in all walks of life now. The art of discusion has been overtaken by the art of argument.

When I first started out as a professional magician, I concentrated on kids' shows. Luckily I've moved about a zilliom miles away from that now, but I do remember one occassion when I was about to start my show in a house where a child's 4th birthday party was being held. One mother, a very fervent Christian, stood up and took herself and her child out of the room while my show was on.

Ah yes, the zombie ball, the TT & silk, the white rabbit puppet in floppy top hat, the bottle of water turned over someone's head. The instruments of evil.