talkmagic.co.uk

A few points...

Firstly Mark, I have copies of the voice messages and court papers concerning that Gent's situation in New Jersey as well as his trouble with U.S. Immigration involving the under aged Haitian lads... but then, we all know that Michael Jackson and Liberace were innocent of charges as well... right? Secondly, I've seen at least two of his live shows in the late 70s, either of which were horrid and in both instances, he hurt himself trying to get out of the Milk Can.

One name that has not come up that should, when we are looking at the idea of Gospel Magic is Andre Kole (http://www.andrekole.org/), one of the greatest and most innovative minds of the mid-20th century and an Evangelic Illusionist. Then again we have groups like http://www.fcm.org/; http://www.fcmuk.org/; http://www.magicmaninfo.com/page810.html; as well as other performers like http://www.illusionandtruth.com/cms/; http://www.bradbrownmagic.com/; http://www.christianmagic.org/index.html.

I've even helped write and in some instances "invent" effects used in Christian plays and musical tributes (I have an awesome Crucifixion & Ascension set). I just think, as per the example above in playing lawyer's games with the terms "Gospel" and "Magic" we have a lot of nit-pickers that are striving to rob something that has had a great deal of positive influence in our world (including magic itself), of its innocence.

Truth of the matter is, we have a movement in magic today that is out to demean any mode or expression of faith and that's the bottom line.

People have the right to believe any religion, but if you ask me, spiritual ignorance is high these days, with religious people and non religious alike.

I mean how many christians really understand there beliefs? Not many

On the other hand, new breed non believers are well just as bad in some respects and just as fooled. Remember those who control education control you.

There is no proper evidence for evolution (Doesnt mean its not true) but its taught as fact using the excuse of "reason and logic" but to be reasonable, only 1 side of the scientific viewpoint on evolution is taught. Same with a load of other topics. Why is this? because the scientists are also been controlled.. by the people funding there research.

Dont be fooled

99.9% of people are fooled , including me on many things.

We know nothing about this universe, nothing at all, we know little about the history of man kind.

My guess would be 50 years time, if humans survive that long, the belief system will be very spiritual, we will have proof of reincarnation, and other dimensions out there. Etc...

Maybe the mainstream dogmatic religions are wrong, but that doesnt mean there is no god (what is god? how do you define god? there are multiple ways). If you define god as a man in the clouds who will judge us all. Then your most likely wrong.

If god is the whole universe, the original source that none of us can live without, then maybe your right.

All im saying is, people will believe what they want lol, just be a good person, dont mock others, cause the odds are we are all wrong.

Even the great pillock richard dawkins, hes just ignorant, equally judgemental and rude as the god of the old testiment.

Somebody told me, if you want to find out if something is "holy" ask yourself what the world would be like if everybody did that thing.

For example, homosexuality, if the whole world was gay, would this be positive or negative for the human race and planet? I think it would be negative, so homosexuality is "unholy" same as "murder", "stealing", "lying" etc.. etc...

Believe what you want, your all wrong lol and your all been fooled by a system that controls every aspect of your life, especially your beliefs.

Religion doesnt cause all wars, it causes conflict when ignorance and religion are combined. But ww1 ww2 was not about religion, infact some people blame darwinism for hitlers actions, and stalins. He believed jews was less evolved than germans. So tried to exterminate them.

Benji28 wrote:For example, homosexuality, if the whole world was gay, would this be positive or negative for the human race and planet? I think it would be negative, so homosexuality is "unholy" same as "murder", "stealing", "lying" etc.. etc...

It would be very negative as the human race would eventually be extinct!

Regarding your Hitler/Darwin idea, it's not true. Hitler had a false idea of what evolution is. He probably didn't kill because of Darwin's theory, he just wanted to justify his horrid actions. If I believed Christianity was about killing sheep and killed sheep left and right until they went extinct, could you honestly say that I was following the christian ideal?

In the theory of evolution, traits that are neutral -neither harmful or helpful to a species- in small amounts don't go away. You're right that if everyone were homosexual, the species would die out, but if it's only one in ten, there's really no harm done. I even heard that it adds to the diversity of the particular species (humans (supposedly) aren't the only animals that have homosexuals in the population).

Your friend's definition of 'holy', though interesting, is flawed. It's exactly what Craig would call seeing everything in black and white.

For example, homosexuality, if the whole world was gay, would this be positive or negative for the human race and planet? I think it would be negative, so homosexuality is "unholy" same as "murder", "stealing", "lying" etc.. etc...

One of my friends has just got married to his boyfriend, and I find it difficult to see what is 'unholy' about two people caring for each other. Just another example of religion breeding hatred.
Like sleightlycrazy said, its not quite as black and white as that.
What about contraception. If everyone uses it, we die out so it must be unholy (like some Christians say, though what they do is very different), but if no one uses it we are faced with mass overpopulation and the spread of disease. Oh, sorry, we already have that in Africa thanks to them missionaries.
What about sex. If we all start doing it, yes we all would be a lot happier, but it wouldn't half get crowded (and the Church doesn't like sex anyway). If we all stop, then its bye bye human race again.
What if you suffered a life threatening accident on the sabbath? Would you sit there bleeding to death because everyone should be worshiping/resting on the sabbath and so there would be no doctors working?
Seems like that kind of reasoning is just a poorly veiled excuse to be homophobic and to justify hatred in the name of God!

Believe what you want, your all wrong lol and your all been fooled by a system that controls every aspect of your life, especially your beliefs.

So what makes you right? From your own logic, everything you have just said is wrong.

I have no reason to doubt Craig's word concerning the "voice messages" and "court papers".

However a person is considered innocent until proven guilty. I am not aware that he has ever been charged with anything let alone been found guily of misconduct.

Benji28 wrote:On the other hand, new breed non believers are well just as bad in some respects and just as fooled.

Amen.

Somebody told me, if you want to find out if something is "holy" ask yourself what the world would be like if everybody did that thing.

For example, homosexuality, if the whole world was gay, would this be positive or negative for the human race and planet? I think it would be negative, so homosexuality is "unholy" same as "murder", "stealing", "lying" etc.. etc...

Let's test that theory. What if everybody in the world became a professional magician? We'd starve, because there would be no one growing crops in sufficient quantities to feed the population. It would kill off humanity much faster than everyone being gay, so, being a professional magician is obviously unholy.

I've only used magicians as an example because of the nature of this site, but the same holds true of pretty much anything.

"God created Adam & Eve, not Adam & Steve." - Alan Partridge

Lord Freddie, that sounds like a very homophobic 'Haggard'-y comment. I hope you don't honestly think such a thing.

I believe in Alians but not a god or any force of that type. A poll was done a few years ago in the U.K more people believe that life is out there not connected to a God in any way.

Just thought I waould add that there is nothing on T.V

TC ALL

Lord Freddie wrote:"God created Adam & Eve, not Adam & Steve." - Alan Partridge

It really would depend on which MYTHOS you want to embrace... most of the worlds Creation Tales suggest that the original man was Hermaphrodite... you even get a hint to this idea in the Genesis story (which was actually borrowed from a much older Hindu Myth found in the Indus Valley about Lord Shiva's creation of the world... it's nearly word for word). The Sexes came about as the result of a kind of "revolution" within the self... the need to rediscover and define what God is/was e.g. we are all Male and Female to variable degrees.

Psychologically speaking there is another "queer" bit of demographics that might perk your ears; most men are not attracted to the more feminine traits within a woman but rather, her masculine traits. Similarly, women tend to be more impressed and drawn to a man's more passive and sensitive side vs. his machismo. Granted, there is more to the study than what I'm sharing but this was a little something the folks at Berkley (if I'm remembering right) thought we would find interesting. Of course there are likewise those studies that reveal how normal it is for "normal" people that identify as being heterosexual to have had either a homosexual experience or related fantasies (especially between the on-set of puberty and as late as one's early 30s with a second common window that opens up in around late middle age when one is trying to revive and redefine themselves.) Too, homosexuals are known for having heterosexual and/or paternal type dreams, fantasies and "lusts". This same study... I think it was an extension to one done by some guy named Kinsey, pointed out that those that identified as being 100% Hetero or Homo sexual also showed sociopathic tendencies and other emotional instabilities.

One last little note... all we boys were girls long before that strange inch decided to pop out and pop up... that's just biology 101.

Well, I uh, gee, maybe, not sure, well yes, I guess so. I thought the question was about gospel magic. I didn't think I would have to worry if doing sponge balls would be appropiate at a gay party but I guess that would make me homophobic. I'm not knocking religion either, they don't need my help in that area. I just think, leave the preaching of the gospel to those who are qualified and perform magic for those that want to be entertained by it. It's hard enough to adapt patter to any effect for perfomances in other venues but religious guidelines prohibit what effects to use and how they are presented. If you like gospel magic, then go for it, you will be happy doing what you like.

sleightlycrazy wrote:Lord Freddie, that sounds like a very homophobic 'Haggard'-y comment. I hope you don't honestly think such a thing.

It's quoted from a television programme. That's why I put it in quotation marks. And credited the person that said it.

Al Doty wrote:I thought the question was about gospel magic.

Indeed it was and we need to stick to that rather than go off track - as has already been mentioned.

leave the preaching of the gospel to those who are qualified and perform magic for those that want to be entertained by it

If you like gospel magic, then go for it, you will be happy doing what you like.

Sounds about right to me...

Thinking about it some more, I'd much rather have Gospel magic, which uses a performing art to create interest, than people like the mother themagicwand talked about, who think vanishing a small red hanky is the work of Satan.

Edited, as the post I was referring to was amended!