talkmagic.co.uk

For what’s its worth I am firmly in Lady’s corner on this one.

It really annoys me when I read comments like Craig’s
"I feel that people should be embarrassed about not being able to spell and use words properly ESPECIALLY when they want to work in an industry that is so word/communications dependent. "

Some people are NATUALLY more skilled in certain aspects in life like the written and spoken word; others excel in other way for instance maths, IT or more practical skills. I personally find writing down information a struggle as do many others, give me a mathematical problem or a technical issue to deal with I find that a whole different ball game.
Since when has a mastering of the English language been a prerequisite for posting on a Magic forum or in fact participating in magic. Magic is all about engaging and entertaining people not proving how good you are at English.
I for one find it a real shame if people have left and don't post because of this. Given a choice I would sooner have a piece of advice that I had to read back through a couple of time rather than no comments..
Anyway that me done, it’s taken far too much of my time already writing this much.
Regards
Chris

The problem is Craig that people don't tend to have the choice as to if they can spell or not. I know I'm certainly not embarrassed about my spelling, it's just the way I am. I'm also pretty sure that there are plenty of things that I can do better than you but I'd never belittle you about them.

We all have strengths and weaknesses, just because one person can do something doens't mean that everyone should.

I agree with Craig.

With respect, Lomster, I find that quite a lot of people actually DO have a choice about spelling and grammar.

Cue, Hovis theme...
'When I were a lad'—which isn't that long ago compared to some members—school was a place which children would attend regularly to become further educated in common communications and academic skills.

During the first years of schooling—primary school—the fundamentals were established, such as basic mathematics, geography, history, music, art and Language {insert your own native tongue here... OOOOH ERRRR MISSUS!}—amongst others.

Schooling is compulsory. I remember bunking off once to go fishing with my buddies, and remember how much trouble my Ma & Pa got into. That was enough for me not to do it again!

Anyhow, then to secondary education, where we were STILL schooled in language, mathematics and either/or both history and geography. You see, maths and language are *compulsory* subjects.

After leaving school, I took no further schooling in English, and yet I find that what I learned is still with me today. I take pride in being grammatically as accurate as I can, and at least ATTEMPTING to spell words correctly.

Simple things like punctuation, starting a sentence with a CAPITAL letter and proper use of standard language is fundamental. Refinements such as advanced punctuation—in the case of em-dashes and the like—or correct usage of 'single' and "double" quotes, or poetic use of language are completely optional.

I'd therefore say that unless a medical ailment or physical disorder specifically prohibits use of proper language, then there's really no excuse for blatant bad use of language. It's sheer lack of education, or attention during education. Or just plain laziness is the more likely option.

Running a design studio, I've performed a lot of interviews. And almost every year when we get the new wave of school/college leavers dropping their speculative CVs in, the command of English gets progressively worse.

And by worse, I mean dire.

As I've mentioned previously, we even had a CV containing TXT speak. Which predictably went straight into the bin.

Of course, there are many CVs received which are beautifully literate. Wonderful command of the language and a joy to read. I'm not trying to tar 'the yoof' with the same broad brush.

Now... I'm not denying that there should be tolerance here if English isn't the native tongue of the poster... I post on a French website quite often, and my pseudo-Franglais is anything but clear sometimes. But I get by and I'm accepted for my knowledge and NOT for my command of a second language.

The worrying thing is this is how languages, especially the written word, evolve.

Within 25 years txt spk will be the socially acceptable way to write.

For what it's worth, I also agree that any type of performing art is a form of communication.

And in many aspects of magic (aside, perhaps from silent magic or big box illusions), effective verbal communication is pretty much essential for audience management - getting volunteers on stage, making them stand in the correct place and getting them to follow instructions with the least possible fuss. What we forget is that saying the right thing is, by its very nature, an invisible process. Your words serve their purpose and get the job done. Audiences only tend to notice your choice or words and language structure if you're prone to unnecessary affectation or bad phrasing.

My writing skills were very lazy until I started working on a newsstand magazine. I got the job because I knew the subject inside and out. The mag's editor then took it upon himself to train me in the art of effective writing using all devious and torturous methods available to him, from open humiliation to Klingon Pain Sticks. At least I think they were Klingon Pain Sticks. They might have been Romulan. Klingons don't take prisoners, while Romulan's evidently do, considering the fact that Tasha Yar's half-Romulan daughter made an appearence in the latter seasons of Next Gen. But of course, that just presupposes that pain sticks are only for use on prisoners, while I understand the rites of passage for klingon adolescents is quite an ordeal. So they might have been Klingon after all. I certainly heard many cries of KAPLAH! during my time in that job. And it would appear to work. When was the last time you heard a Klingon use poor grammar or get called up for a spelling mistake? They and their families would be disgraced. They would die without honour and never reach StoVoKor. Then again, the Klingon language is a little simpler than English. For example, the simple verb 'to be' doesn't exist in Klingon. Or at least it didn't until the sixth movie, when Nicholas Meyer wanted to quote Hamlet in Klingon. That caused all sorts of headaches for the production team. But I wasn't writing in Klingon back then. I wasn't allowed to. And it's just as well, as I didn't know the Klingon words for 'compression', 'MPEG' or 'charge-coupled device'.

Regardless, it taught me that effective use of language can be taught and learned. Sure, some people are more predisposed to language than others, but that shouldn't stop you trying.

I'd argue that effective verbal communication is a much more valuable skill to the magician than a good DL or an invisible classic pass. And they don't exactly come naturally!

Okay, I'm done with my soapbox.

Pete

I think people might have got me a bit wrong here, I wasn't talking about people who are just being lazy with their language. What I was talking about were those who do really try but for one reason or another do have a REAL problem with language.

Siege,
Thanks for that wonderful trip down memory lane, being closer to Forty than thirty I too took that exact same route.
My Journey ended with a HNC in engineering and a couple of A levels in Maths and Physics but I still struggled with English language.
Some times when things come naturally like writing clearly does to you its hard to appreciate when others struggle. My mother is very good at English and has written a few children’s , yet despite reading the instructions she still can't work her video or DVD cue her illiterate / lazy technical son.

Chris

Crispy, I fail to see your point, as your grasp of English seems excellent.

There's a huge margin between illiteracy/laziness and 'can't be bothered'. And it has nothing to do with intelligence.

I'm talking about posts like:

"Ave N E body buy the latest E Lusionist DVD cos I did and it is brill 4 me."


That's not even English. Let alone a language. It's actually very lazy.

My own mother cannot operate their Sky+ system for toffee, either, if that's any consolation.

Hey Crispy, perhaps you and I could set up the 'Lady of Mystery and Crispy Center For Kids Who Can't Read Good and Wanna Learn to Do Other Stuff Good Too' where we could teach them magic and how to be ridiculously good looking.

Lady of Mystery that sounds like a great idea, the only trouble being I can't see how I could help on either account.

Seige,
My main point was really that other people take for granted the skills they poses compared to others.

If only you knew how long it took me to compose those posts, it’s also a good job that you don't have to pay per word by using the spell checker.
My excellent English had in fact been proofed before by the guy sitting next to me, I thought considering the topic that I should at least make every effort not to embarrass myself as Craig would put it.

I would like to and that I do agree that having comunication skills in magic is very important, more so from a verbal rather written perspective.
Chris

Incidentally - but still kind of appropriate to the subject - I've just been watching one of Shoot Ogawa's DVDs. If you've ever seen him perform, you'll know that his command of the English language is rather hesitant and stumbly (and a million billion times better than my command of Japanese), but he makes it work for him rather than against him. Shoot's slightly 'out of his element' quality is a big part of his charm - and his magic is so massively visual, it all works very well as a package. To hear him talk about framing the spectator's attention brings home the fact that this is a guy who considers every minute detail.

But I still don't think I have an excuse for anything but clarity when performing locally.



Pete

Another point to ponder. I am Canadian currently living in the USA I often get harrassed for spelling words like colour, night, labour, here in the U.S. they spell the same words as color and labor and nite. I am simply quite amazed that some folks simply don't understand that, 'colour' is absolutly correct and I have been the recipient of abuse on some forums for this very matter. I am also from a french Canadian province so I do tend to spell certain words with a franglish slant, (although I can't think of one at the moment). And while I do really enjoy this board sometimes I have no idea what in blazes you lot are talking about due to terminology. Luckly there is a magician in town who is from Manchester I believe, and when we speak I grill him about terms I have heard. Or I'll email my cousins who live across the pond. My point is simply there may be issues we don't recognize.

While I am the laziest person I know, (I practice my xtreme card manipulation in my recliner) there is no excuse to text speak in a civilized environment and one must at least make a concentrated effort to communicate effectivly and if I feel that is not being done I simply ignore the post. I see no reason to waste my time belittling somebody when it is far easier to ignore them.

I didn't realise that americans actually do spell night as nite, I just thought is was an abreviation. You learn something new everyday

As with all things, if there's something which anyone doesn't understand, just ask and we can try to rephrase or translate.