talkmagic.co.uk

Right well hopefully the divergence of opinion will all help to giving a more informed choice to a prospective buyer of KE.

Possibly another interesting point to come out of it, is how we come to score tricks, just exactly what do we knock marks off for or indeed add them. It appears I'm less ready to give a 10 than some others, I suppose I like to save a 10 for a very special trick and not just any good trick, but clearly we are all coming from a slightly different angle.

To be honest, when I read a review I don't take much notice of whether the final mark is 8,9,9.5 or 10. I want a) to know the facts, what the effect or item actually is or what sleights are described etc, and b) to get a feeling for what the reviewer thought about it and why.

Personally I think marks out of ten are pretty irrelevant. What it comes down to is: are you happy you bought it and would you recommend it to others or not? It's so subjective that trying to be more 'accurate' is futile (in my opinion and experience).

I remember on one review site (not magic) there was a debate over whether the five-star system should be scrapped for a 'more accurate' percentage system so that people could distinguish between an 88% and a 86% rated videogame. In protest the reviewers replaced the star rating with a 'Should you buy it? YES/NO'. Works as well as anything.

Maybe a Yes/No route is the way to go.
1. I will not use it
2. I will use it.

or perhaps something a liittle more elaborate.

1. I will never use it
2. I will use it sometimes
3. I will use it alot.

but that doesn't say enough so maybe...

1. I will never use this again. its pants.
2. I will use this very infrequently
3. I will use this occasionally when the moment is right
4. I will use this very fequently
5. I will use this all the time

Maybe just a few more options to make it perfect...
1. This is now for sale.
2. I will never use this again. its pants. but I will keep it just in case.
3. I may use this sometinmes, when I have run out of other things
4. I will use this very very in frequently
5. I may use this, sometimes.
6. I will use this occasionally when the moment is right
7. I will use this only when a suitable ocasion occurs
8. I will use this very fequently
9. This will be in my working repetoire, but will not get used every time
10. I will use this all the time

It's all very subjective really - my idea of a 9 is probably not echoed by anyone else but I'd hope that it would give just an indication of my opinion and is probably better judged in the light of any earlier reviews.

If someone is a real card freak then they will be gagging over a good card effect whereas the rope worker or general magic guy may still be impressed but not quite as much. Consider someone like MagicDiscoMan who is more involved with Children's Shows and you can expect a different point of view from him compared to someone like seige.

I doubt we'll ever get a reliable scoring system so perhaps we'll need to be more specific in the text of the review? I resist giving any item a 10 as I think there's always a better one just waiting to be released but, as far as I'm concerned, since this is all for fun and entertainment, perhaps we don't need to be 100% accurate in scoring items at all. Just tell everyone what you think of the effect and give it you personal marks out of 10 as an additional indication. If someone thinks a trick is only worth a 5 then that's all it's worth as far as they are concerned and this should be respected. Someone else can say they think it's a 10+ and that opinion will be just as valid. Whatever turns you on, as they say!

(PS - I think the only one I've ever properly done twice in succession was ID but I did the second version as a sort of mental 'I'll try and read you mind' thing where I divined the card (just messed around with the deck under the table for 'secrecy' and put it back again the way it was) then revealed the newly chosen card to be reversed. Same trick, slightly different treatment. I wouldn't dare try it a third time though!)

I tend not to think too hard about the ratings I give anyway, I just use a number that feels right at the time.

I tend not to think too hard about the ratings I give anyway, I just use a number that feels right at the time.

Dito. I try to follow my gut instinct about an effect.

I think the problem is also that many of the reviewed effects are only reviewed because we like them and want to share this. However, maybe we shoul start reviewing effects/material that we don't like and share that as well.

a review is just that a review of a trick from someones perspective, most contain links so you can form your own opinion.
on repeats as i use a stripper deck as a regular deck then i can and do repeat a card selection and strip i just vary the end and if an effect has a conceled gimick like a change bag then i may well repeat the same effect part for part similarly a raven could be used a second or even third time with slight variations without discovery, i do this with the cut and restored rope because the dirty work is done and dusted before the trick begins.

i personaly dont look at the rateing but study the text and inferences from that backed up with my own view and were possible a couple of video demos with diferent handleing to see if visualy it will work for me.
due to haveing developed a benigne parkinsons tremor, thanxs dad i have to consider a lot more factors than most so i supose I'm a bit more paranoid with my choices but at the end of the day its what you feel is usefull to you at the time.
case in point i jumped on the bandwagon with the raven then flogged it and now can see the advantages of this device now that I'm getting weddings and tablehopping gigs too.

If I found it natural and pleasant to stroll around a field in Somerset in nothing more than my birthday suit, I would of course, condone it and rave about it.

However, it's not everyone's cup of tea.

And similarly, I would give jalepeno peppers 10 out of 10 for flavour, wheras I know for a fact that most un-abused palettes would not even get the flavour–just the burn.

The point I am trying to illustrate is that there seems to be too many 'opiniated' and 'final word' views in reviews—not just here, but in other forums too.

A review, if well written and honest–and critical only to a point of being fair, then surely we've still got a decision?

Because someone TELLS me something is good, I cannot be the judge, because my opinions are being overridden.
If someone SUGGESTS something is good, I still have the leeway to ask questions and make my own mind up.

However, the point which usually sinks home harder is NEGATIVITY.

If someone TELLS me something is BAD, I take instant notice, and will avoid.

If someone SUGGESTS that something is BAD, I can take it as read that it may only be bad for them, and not the rest of the world.

I tire of the slanging matches. I tire of the soapboxes.

If something is good enough for one person, but doesn't even rate for the rest of the planet, then there's a fair point.

But—just because I am the only person I am aware of who enjoys belting down jalepenos without fear or pain, and the rest of my family and friends think I am a lunatic —should that be grounds for Sainsbury's to stop stocking them?

Should that be grounds for ME to STOP EATING THEM?

Indeed, should I even STOP BUYING THEM because I am told they are foul, and too hot to eat?

No. No. No.

HOWEVER - LACK OF KNOWLEDGE CAN BREED IGNORANCE AND ARROGANCE...
As far as strolling around naked in a 'Health and Efficiency' style - no, it's not my cup of tea. But, I'm not going to evangelically protest, or despise those that do. Oh, no. Why?

Because, I've never tried it. Heck—I may even enjoy it, if I did.

What am I rambling on about?

Well, in my scenario, I'd give roaming around in the buff a 0/10 rating, and I'd give Jalepeno Peppers a definate 10/10.

But, I know that my subjective opinions may be reliably and justifiably challenged. And I would accept that criticism.

However—my point is that I have just explained and justified my opinions above. Perhaps if more reviews gave justification for their ratings, then we'd not be having this discussion.

And if people would stop being so righteous and precious about their own opinions, whether right or wrong, then we'd reach conclusions and agreements in a far quicker and amicable (dare I say, mature) fashion.

(Seige steps down, and waits for an influx of hate-mail)

go seige, go seige, go nude, go nude, its fun realy oh thoughs care free days on the nudist beach with my auntie and uncle

go nude 10/10.
peppers 0/10

like swallowing a mareen distress flare

(jasper carrot).

i try my best to be ballanced in my reviews even if i get a bad one see no tear kids banner that tore .

i,m all for reasoned argument in reviews.

Well all I can say to that is I agree with the 10/10 for Jalepenos and that you seem to have summed the whole thing up pretty well.

Have you tried Jalepenos in a roast beef and horseradish sandwich? Fantastic, but a lot of people seem to have a problem with it.

Perhaps if more reviews gave justification for their ratings, then we'd not be having this discussion.

Yeah I fully agree with justifying your rating, actually that is exactly what I was doing. However in my opinion if someone disagrees I want to hear it, I can't stand this idea of avoid disagreement. There is little point in reading more than the first review if you know that peer pressure will make sure that no one will disagree with that first one.

Yes a review is an opinion, this does not mean that it can't be disagreed with, it can. It's then up to each person that expresses their opinion if they think it's worth it, to justify their opinion and in so doing, the reader will learn far more about the suitability of a trick.

So for example if someone says that they wouldn't give a 10 because the trick can't be repeated and it needs a suitcase to carry the gimmick, a reader can decide if these objections are issues that matter to them.

Mr Toad - I can happily agree with you.

If a review is meant to be taken as a statement, it defies the reasoning of it's role as a review. A statement such as "Don't buy this cos you can't repeat it" is HARDLY a review.

However, reviews BEG for opinion—albeit, argumentative or agreeable.

You have hit a small nail on the head of my statement

Well, just for the record, you are all wrong.

Fools.

OK OK OK I joke, lol.
Interesting thread, Seige sums it up well I think.
Sometimes I think we take things a little more seriously than we need to.
Yes net-wide there are many many 10/10s and yes a lot of rash reviews but in the end if I am buying anything I don't take one review as gospel.
That reviewer might be a fool or it may be their first purchase in that market, who knows.
So I read a lot and read between the lines, form my own view and then go take a look at it myself.
Sadly with magic you don't get the look at it so you may have to depend on reviews more I guess.
The point I am making badly is that yeah some people give 10/10 the same day they open the package and a day later it is in a drawer etc, so ignore them and find a better review
The good thing about this place is you can ask them questions and get an honest answer.
A good case in point being the Station Manager Doc, lots of people were interested, asked me about it and saved themselves some money, lol.
It does work (reviews that is), like everything, if you learn the rules and play the game

Anyway back to you all being wrong ........