talkmagic.co.uk

I do not and never have claimed to be the final answer to anything on the other hand I wont down-play what I do know based on actual experience even when a huge number of people wish I'd just shut up and go away so they don't have to look at the truth of it all.

I said that I'd bet that Criss has never been involved in any legit investigation (his schedule and lack of expressed understanding of such things supports this), I didn't say it as fact, just a point of logical conclusion.

When it comes to the "Belief" line...you changed that to religion vs. a person's faith or belief... again, a common game played by the more cynically inclined. Criss crosses himself before doing one of his big stunts so he believes in some kind of super power... why is his real and that of Uri or anyone else not? Hell, being a good Catholic boy he believes some murdered Jew rose from the dead, floating into the sky and all sorts of other phenomenal things that go far beyond anything we've seen any of the "real" psychics do or claim to do. So let's keep things in perspective here, you can't say that the Gifts of the Gospel listed in the New Testament are real, when this group of people manifests them but not true when another... or are we saying that they don't exist at all? If that's the case I guess Criss's crossing himself is just done for theatrics and to solicit advantage in the "New Young Christian's Movement/Market"? If so, we have yet another sham ... a con that is more cruel and deliberate in that it is coldly usury.

I've shared this dozens of times in these forums; I'm all for exposing actual charlatans and have literally laid my life on the line going after them. My experience has proved to me and others like me, that all these "researchers" and "debunkers" that hide behind some kind of laboratory shield aren't confident enough in their claims to step into the abyss. After all, some of these charlatans do kill people that get into their way and threaten them... it's not a game!

Someone with the attitude that Criss projects wouldn't last five minutes in this sort of situation, they'd probably just chase him off but if they suspect that he had any kind of "proof" that could cost them, situations change very fast.

Like his guru (and a growing majority in today's magic world) a cover-all perspective is in play that envelopes anything and everything that can be classified as "Miraculous" or "esoteric" or even of the "Unexplained"... anything they want to fit into the niche and last I checked Angels, Demons and Ghost don't use Flying Saucers and yet, the JREF ties such things together along with other squared pegs they keep trying to drive into rounded holes. The agenda, as I said before, is to remove "GOD & MIRACLES" from the equation.

My "Agreement" to your comment is that Jim should have let things go and dealt with Criss off camera in a manner that would prove more "responsible" vs. giving to Criss EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTED and what the producers of the show "needed".

Oh! You asked about Randi... I personally loathe the man and the more I discover about him and who he is outside of his little ivory tower, the more I feel he should have been imprisoned decades ago... too, the more I am confident that he's running one of the biggest cons on people in this industry and who are part of the more intellectual side of society, that's ever been run. He is a charming and intelligent idiot that is, in my opinion, a horrid reprobate.

The "Clown" line was directed to "all atheists" but rather the so-called "skeptics" holding to this atheist-based agenda that keep pushing it forward under the lie that "to be a magician you can't believe in anything but intellect and science."

There is a Median by the way, but today's Cynical elements want it only in black & white and of course, their way. Sadly, the more fanatical "believers" rarely get to know about the deeper levels of esoteric tradition and the Occult explanation behind all these things... the fact that it is all accomplished as the direct result of knowing physics, math, chemistry, biology and what some would call "Harmonics" (the musical side of math & physics)... in other words "It's all science" but not in the cold manner our more cynical detractors would prefer seeing it. In other words both sides are just as right as they are wrong.

Yes, Copperfield got yelled at for using "Creative Editing" and of course Blue Screen (once, in the Grand Canyon special) that's very different from what Angel and Blaine have been doing... especially Angel. With little exception everything Copperfield presented was legit he merely used editing methods to "enhance" the effects such as the Levitation featured in the Statute of Liberty special or the Blue Screen shots used in the Grand Canyon levitation. All in all, David presented material he'd already been touring with for a year or longer before it went on TV... this is not the case when it comes to Angel and his cast of two dozen stooges and team of techno-wizards in the editing room.

I'm curious as to how many lay people have noticed the helicopters or hot-air balloons flying nearby when he's filming that out-door levitation?

Not exactly guarding his own secrets but an excellent exploitation in Harrary's PERSPECTIVE concept.

I can give you huge list of half-measures when it comes to this twit... especially in how he ruined one of the greatest escape stunts ever staged... he barely gives credit to the man he got it from let alone LISTENING TO HIM so it came off right and screw rehearsals!

Sorry... this kid angers me... he was exceptional BEFORE fame came his way. Now, he really is that middle-aged jerk trying to act like a kid and coming off as being little other than a huge A S S...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85Tk9r6LSCs
The criss angel argument

Darren @ The Magic Attic

Craig Browning wrote:I can assure you that this little twit hasn't invested one second of time in an actual hands-on investigation...

You didn't say "you bet" - you said exactly this. If that's not trying to state fact, I don't know what is.

I didn't change the line to religion - you did. You brought up atheism. You brought up debunkers not wanting to cross the religious line. You can't open the door to speak of religion and then cry foul when I do. You said yourself that people like Angel and Penn use the loophole to keep out of hot water with religious groups. I was merely pointing out the holes in that argument.

I'd also like to thank you for slyly trying to paint me as a cynic. I'm not playing a game, and once again - I should point out that you have no idea where my inclinations are.

I'm not going to go into the Religion/Spiritualism debate here. It's not the point I was trying to make. I will however say that - YES - I certainly can say the Gospels are real and true, and Uri Gellar is a lying fraud. That is well within my rights. That's why you can talk about the median that exists, but you're not actually standing on it. Who says I can't accept certain things and dismiss others? YOU DO. In that light, how are you any different than James Randi? I don't have to accept everything, Craig. That's my right. You don't have to agree with me. That's your right.

"creative editing"? Come on, now. You mentioned the enhancement to the levitation during the Statue of Liberty special - but conveniently left out The Statue of Liberty VANISH. It may not have had a computer-tech airbrushing the statue out in photoshop, but it was still a camera trick. That's my problem with this entire situation. Copperfield gets a pass, because he presented material he'd already toured with. If you use that as the basis for defense, than how can you attack Angel when he also uses tried and tested effects from his former stage show on Mindfreak?

I'm not trying to defend Criss Angel's methods or excuse anything he's done. (I have here, and on the mentalist sanctum forum said I felt he was out of line going after Jim during the competition), I'm just pointing out that others who are guilty of similar behavior are not nearly as demonized as he is.

In fact, your ENTIRE argument in the beginning of the point is about how one can't pick and choose. And yet - here you are, doing exactly that. How can you say it's all or nothing, and then say you're not painting it black and white?

The Magic Attic wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85Tk9r6LSCs
The criss angel argument

Just forgetting all the arguments for the time being. Having now seen that clip I have to say that it simply looks like a publicity stunt to me and it wouldn't surprise me at all if the three of them were all drinking in the pub afterwards...

bananafish wrote:

The Magic Attic wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85Tk9r6LSCs
The criss angel argument

Just forgetting all the arguments for the time being. Having now seen that clip I have to say that it simply looks like a publicity stunt to me and it wouldn't surprise me at all if the three of them were all drinking in the pub afterwards...

We're being asked to believe that all 4 stone of Uri Geller and an ex-Blue Peter presenter rush to stop a fight between Criss Angel and some guy out of OMD... and succeed.

Guess who else is an ex-Blue Peter presenter. Ta da! Yvette Fielding!

And let us not forget that the ever fragrant Sarah Green once did a live spoof of a haunted house investigation.

Makes yer fink, dunnit eh?

..never bullsh*t a bullsh*tter...

and they are a bunch of them...as we all are in some way or another..

derek acorah used to play for liverpool...so you'd of thought his spirit guide would of been emlyn hughes if anyone...bless ol' crazy horse..

anyway, thats the fatal flaw in Phenom, it doesnt take much googling of names and phrases to arrive at magic chat sites, thus automatically getting themselves labelled as "magicians" and therefore "entertaining tricks"...nothing more, nothing less...which, may i clarify is something to be proud of, being entertaining, if only more people were...

but if i thought for one minute, that someone i saw on a show like that was real, i would google them, and then find out they would appear on forums talking about what books they get their effects from...

jim callahan appears on the second page of google's search results for "mentalist jim callahan" at the magic cafe...

I'm sure if i saw him, i would be entertained, if i thought he was real, i would be dissapointed to see him mix with mentalists and magicians...

angel just bores me to tears...i could only manage to watch half of one episode...and that was enough for me..

i'd rather they just give Banachek his own primetime show and be done with it..at least then i'd enjoy something...

abraxus wrote:I'd rather they just give Banachek his own primetime show and be done with it..at least then I'd enjoy something...

I like it. He could do an effect to top and tail the show, have a couple of acts on to pad it, and be joined by a very special guest to chat to and show him their signature effect. Remember when telly used to be like that? No fannying about with phone-ins or other fake nonsense. Just entertainment and chat: access to the stars, in other words.

remember how berglas framed it Tomo - "this is showbiz..."

yeah, well, that parkinson show of canasta is a prime candidate of both entertainment, proper old school charm and full on psychomagic...

there's so many stumbling blocks for psychics who truthfully base their work on corinda and annemann! the truth will out i suppose...eventually..

anyway, give me a show with banachek, brown and a few special guests and i'll be there...oh and chimps...gotta have at least one chimp...not doing anything except maybe having them walk on hand in hand with the guest...genius...

or, put two angry chimps in a room with angel and watch them split him in two!

Can the chimps wear hats too? I love chimps in hats

abraxus wrote:gotta have at least one chimp...

Have you seen Paul Daniels' one with the chimps??

It's on Youtube. I'd post a link but I can't since it's barred here at work, but it shouldn't be too hard to find.

I remember a regrettable reference in there somewhere. Heh. I'm sure he wouldn't get away with that type of thing these days.

Has anyone heard of Karl Pilkington...?

abraxus wrote:but if I thought for one minute, that someone I saw on a show like that was real, I would google them, and then find out they would appear on forums talking about what books they get their effects from...

jim callahan appears on the second page of google's search results for "mentalist jim callahan" at the magic cafe...

I'm sure if I saw him, I would be entertained, if I thought he was real, I would be dissapointed to see him mix with mentalists and magicians...

That's very true. There's a video on NBC of Criss mentioning how Callahan posts on magic chatrooms and it's something others have picked up on as well - it's certainly not doing him any favours.

It all makes me wonder why people in this position don't adopt a pseudonym. There are plenty of products and posts online by a Patrick Redford, but that ain't his real name...

abraxus wrote:remember how berglas framed it Tomo - "this is showbiz..."

Aye. All Angel[1] is actually doing is what Berglas said would be the real killer for any mentalist trying to keep up the fake psychic facade all the time. But is right in the middle of that particular show, in which he and to a greater extent Geller have a vested interest in keeping it partly abut opinion and belief, the time to be calling one of the contestant's bluff with stupid challenges? It looks staged and so ugly on so many levels, from cynic to believer.

[1] Can we drop the pretentious "Criss Angel" thing and just call him by his proper name, Chris Sarantakos, yet?

Cardza wrote:Has anyone heard of Karl Pilkington...?

Have you heard the podcast where they meet Derren Brown? Poor Karl. Not one of nature's thinkers.

Tomo wrote:

Cardza wrote:Has anyone heard of Karl Pilkington...?

Have you heard the podcast where they meet Derren Brown? Poor Karl. Not one of nature's thinkers.

"There's only this, a letter for Mrs. Harris! Can we open this? No but I'm thinking if there's a birthday card for somebody's forty-second birthday..."

If it were possible to blur the lines of reality and fiction I'd love to sit Karl down with Moss from The IT Crowd and watch the resulting conversation

Tomo wrote:

Cardza wrote:Has anyone heard of Karl Pilkington...?

Have you heard the podcast where they meet Derren Brown? Poor Karl. Not one of nature's thinkers.

Karl met derren here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTiGZC4scGc