talkmagic.co.uk

I don't try to pass myself off as being magic because, frankly, nobody I perform to would actually believe that I'm magic. But saying that, I don't blatantly just say that I'm not magic and that its all slight of hand, I usually just leave it as a mystery to the spectator.

I always tell someone that I'm going to do "something that transcends the mind", "something cool", or "hey, watch this." Afterwards, when they're standing there with thier jaws on the floor, I'm kind enough to pick them up and hand it to them. When they ask, "How did you do that?" I always respond by leaning into them and whispering into their ear, "It's magic". When they copmlain it's not, I sometimes say, "Look, it's magic. Get over it, ok? How else could I have done that?"
I suggest doing what you're going to do, then pass it off as magic. Works very well, especially if you're performing for a gothic person or just some hot girl you want to impress. But that's just my opinion. I believe you should try this and many other methods until you feel comfortable with something.

Hey - Sheffield Alabama! Hello from Sheffield Yorkshire! We're almost neighbours...or brothers...or something!

Mikey.666 wrote:(Talking about an older audience here Not kids)

I STRONGLY agree with you here. The presentation of your trick as magic or otherwise depends greatly on the type of audience.

Make sure you choice your methods judging by the audience, for example if its a kids show, magic powers are fine, however for a grown audience it may come across as a little bit patronizing.

Just my thoughts

I feel quite strongly about the subject of whether or not magick is "real", but this is neither the time nor the place for such a complex foray into the ontology of reality (suffice to say that perhaps a few too many people have mistakenly put away magick with childish trappings such as Father Christmas or the Easter Bunny).
As to how to present your tricks or illusions; I think this can only come down to your preference as a performer.
Play to your strengths; if you believe you can pull off an occult vibe, go for it. If I had the presence and demeanour for it, I would certainly enjoy pulling off tricks as something occult, in fact on occasion I have - context is very important.
If you are someplace where belief in the supernatural is high, or perhaps the location has a particular vibe, you might want to go for an occy style. However if you are in buzzing club or pub, you might want to go for a more tongue in cheek or even hip style (think Dynamo).
I guess that's the advantage you have with not being a "big name" like Mr. Brown. When you haven't released a series of DVD's or TV series, you don't necessarily need to cultivate a fixed persona for the performance of magic.

Palmer Eldritch wrote:When you haven't released a series of DVD's or TV series, you don't necessarily need to cultivate a fixed persona for the performance of magic.

But you should. The reason that these folks have DVDs to begin with is that they've got their fixed persona down. They don't start trying to fix their persona after the DVDs, but rather, because they have a fixed persona, they have become famous enough to begin putting out DVDs that we buy.

You should have a character that you portray, which is the culmintation and the evolution of hundreds to thousands of real life performances. If you don't know who the hell you are, then how can your audience figure it out?

KaleBaiton wrote:I don't try to pass myself off as being magic because, frankly, nobody I perform to would actually believe that I'm magic.

If you don't believe in your own magic, then why should they? Certainly, before the trick or after the trick, you don't try to convince anyone that what you are about to do or what you did was real magic, but in the act of performance, you had better believe in your own magic or you'll never get that suspension of disbelief on their part.

Do you have patter? Certainly you must...When you present a cup and ball effect, do you say, "The ball jumps from this cup to that cup" or do you say, "Using sleight of hand, I've put the ball under this cup when you weren't looking?"

If you don't believe in your own magic, then quit doing magic, because it is really a useless thing to do.

Don't take my word for it, read and study Ammar, Wonder, Burger, Minch, Vernon, Ortiz...The list goes on and on and on and on. They all say the same thing - believe in your own magic.

Mikey.666 wrote:I never perform my effects as "magic" I try to perform them as games, stories, or demonstrations. I feel this gets a much better reaction as you are not treating the audience like fools.

To entreat your audience to, for a moment, accept and believe that magic is real is not to play them for fools. If it were, then any given movie that they go to watch where they are expected to believe, for the moment, that what they are seeing is real, is treating them as fools.

If you want to treat your magic as games, then be a gamer, not a magician. Play games with them and make your games entertaining, but don't call yourself a magician. If you want to treat your effects as stories, then call yourself a story teller and not a magician. Spend your time spinning interesting and entertaining stories, but quit doing magic, because magic should be magic and not take second place to the story (again, don't take my word for it, read "Strong Magic" and Ortiz will tell you exactly the same thing). If you want to demonstrate things, then call yourself a demonstrator and give up magic.

If you think that momentarily turning someone's world upside down with magic is making a fool of them, then I strongly suggest that you quit magic and get on with another hobby that makes you feel comfortable. If you cannot believe in your own magic, then you ain't a magician, you are a puzzlemaster.

Certainly, there is a place for an entertaining puzzlemaster and I'm not putting such a thing down. Just don't call yourself a magician.

greedoniz wrote:Your audience knows that it is sleight of hand but in the hands of a good performer they play along with the game and forget about reality of the situation if just for a few minutes.

That's all you're asking for, just those few moments. But, if in those moments you cannot believe in your own magic, then you are doing your audience a disservice by claiming that you are a magician, because you are not.

That's the point of magic. If it ain't magic, then you have nothing and you've wasted a massive amount of time in learning bullsh*t.

Mike.

But you should. The reason that these folks have DVDs to begin with is that they've got their fixed persona down. They don't start trying to fix their persona after the DVDs, but rather, because they have a fixed persona, they have become famous enough to begin putting out DVDs that we buy.

If your aim is to become a celebrity then I concede that developing an "on screen" persona would be highly beneficial. However it all comes down to your goals. I'm no less ambitious than someone that aspires to stardom and yet stardom is not my goal. I simply wish to entertain and perhaps even amaze people from time to time, in an impromptu fashion - thus free-styling, multiplicity and flexibility are potent tools in my arsenal.

You seemed to imply that there is no alternative to patter that passes of a trick as "real magic" however the alternatives are numerous.
Take Derran Brown for example (no please, take him). Mr. Brown comes from a psychology background and is known for this. He, like others, has identified that belief is patchy when it comes to "real magic"; unsurprising then that he is known to supplant magic with psychology.
In other words; he uses his patter to convince people that he is using the "power of suggestion" when he may in actual fact be working a classic card trick that utilizes sleights. I’m not saying that he has never used “the power of suggestion”; I’ve seen him do it – but the example of passing something off as psychology when it is not so - strikes me as an apt one.
A Psychological explanation for something is more acceptable to most people than magic, but no less mysterious. Fill someone’s head with magic and they may well turn up their nose, but banter on to that same person about neuro-linguistic programming and post hypnotic suggestion; and their eyes will most likely glass over as they enter willingly into your web of deceit.

Ultimately I can't help but end on my original conclusion; there is no right or wrong way, just courses for horses. Context is everything – ask Timothy Leary.

Palmer Eldritch wrote:In other words; he uses his patter to convince people that he is using the "power of suggestion" when he may in actual fact be working a classic card trick that utilizes sleights. I’m not saying that he has never used “the power of suggestion”; I’ve seen him do it – but the example of passing something off as psychology when it is not so - strikes me as an apt one.

It is an apt one. In fact, it is very much a part of the persona and the road that Mr. Brown chose - that is his form of magic.

To wit: Darwin Ortiz, giving example to an invasive form of magic, writes, "It makes the spectator the subject of the trick. The effect becomes a great example of invasive magic as the performer proves he can penetrate the spectator's mind and subtly influence his will."

What this comes down to is that Derren Brown believes in his own magic, whether it is the ability to subtly effect and influence their mind or to outright hypnotize them. When he's talking to the audience, he doesn't say, "I'm not influencing you at all. This is nothing more than a puzzle to make you believe the bullstuff that I'm about to feed you." No, he says he's going to make them do what he wants, then he proves it.

And in that moment that he is doing it, he believes it himself. Just like any good actor playing his part, he would be a fool if he didn't.

I simply wish to entertain and perhaps even amaze people from time to time, in an impromptu fashion - thus free-styling, multiplicity and flexibility are potent tools in my arsenal.

You can certainly do this. You can sit down with your mates one day and tell them that you can read their minds, then sit down on the next day and tell them that you are an expert card gambler and cheat, then sit down on the next day and tell them that you can float in the air. And, you will never in your life do one, strong magic trick.

Don't get me wrong. You will do a trick. If you've practiced, it will be impossible for them to figure out. And they will tell you how clever you are.

If you like being clever, you have certainly chosen the right path. Me, though, I don't want people to think I'm clever.

You are right, horses for courses.

You seemed to imply that there is no alternative to patter that passes of a trick as "real magic" however the alternatives are numerous.

"Real magic" comes in many forms - like what I'm talking about above with invasive magic. There are many ways to peform real magic, in the eyes of the spectator. Derren Brown's is powerful magic, because he gets them to believe what he's saying as fact, even though it is pseudo psychology. What do you know? It works. It is so powerful, in fact, that he gets his own television specials both in England and in the USA.

You are well within your rights to sit down with your mates and do an ambitious card saying, "Here, watch how I can appear to keep putting this card back in the middle of the deck...Check out how easy it is for me to fool your eyes with this b*ll*cks. Ain't that cool, it really looks like I'm doing that, doesn't it...But, you know there's no such thing as magic so just dig on how very clever I am." It'll definitely get reactions, but it won't be anywhere near strong magic.

Watch Tommy Wonder do his ambitious card routine. He doesn't sit there and patronize people. What he does, though, is show them very powerful magic and for the moment in time that he does what he does, he believes every bit of what they are seeing. If you don't believe that, if you think that I'm lying, then you are welcome to pick up "The Books of Wonder" and see what a true master has to say about it.

I'm not talking about the fact that you don't have a choice or that I'm better than you. I'm talking about the proper way to make your magic as strong as your magic can be. You don't have to listen to what I'm saying and you can just call it horses for courses. Some day, though, you might just venture into the real work in magic and look back and say, "Jeez, wish I'd've listen to that guy on Talk Magic...It would have saved me years of banging my head on the wall trying to figure out how to get these exceptional reactions."

Study Fitzkee. Study Vernon. Study Ortiz. Study Wonder. In fact, study any magician who is very good at what he does and gets the drop dead reactions and you'll arrive at the exact same conclusion as to what I'm telling you.

Unfortunately, I realize that this is just an exercise in wasting my time, because of the inherent value. If you had paid $75.00 for my book you'd actually take it on board. Since I'm giving it for free, well that is what it must be worth. A shame. It works that way in the business, too, you know...The more you charge, the more work you get. Not because you're better, but because the dollar (or pound) value tends to say that you are worth it, right or wrong. Inherent value.

Dealing with numerous patter lines (rather than coming out and saying "magic is real") is a good study and worthy of your time. I have to believe that you've never read anything by any of the men that I've mentioned, because if you had you'd know that I wasn't saying that you should say, "See, because I'm filled with magic powers, I can make the card come to the top."

Depending on your line of patter, you have to decide certain things. For example, is your ambitious card trying to make a fool of you by constantly springing to the top? It's possible and the card could be more of a puppet styled presentation than just sticking a card in and having it come to the top. Or, is your ambitious card more of a morality play about a politician who couldn't be held down, finally thrown in jail for his dirty ambitions (card winds up in wallet)?

Now, I can sit here and discuss how to use surpise and suspense, how to use twist endings, how to introduce conflict, how to set the stage and a hundred other optional elements, but then I really would be writing a book. And it can all be found, anyway, in the writings of Burger, Ammar, Wonder, Minch, Nelms, Vernon, Fitzkee and dozens of other masters.

Ultimately I can't help but end on my original conclusion; there is no right or wrong way, just courses for horses. Context is everything – ask Timothy Leary.

I never said that there was a right or wrong way. But, there is a strong and a weak way. If you don't believe in your own magic, which every single master of magic will tell you that you must, then it ain't ever going to be strong, no matter how much you will to be...It doesn't magically happen. It happens with study and learning the ultimate truths in magic.

I think that after every, single master of magic says it and after seeing it work in my own magic for the last couple of decades, that I can safely say it is true and goes a bit farther than just being horses for courses.

Unfortunately, this was probably nothing more than a phenominal waste of my time.

Mike.

VE3VYZ wrote:I've been thinking a lot lately on how to present tricks, and I wonder: should I present the illusions as real magic? I know that some pros do, but what does everyone think?

I claim that the children in the audience are the ones that are doing the magic. To most of the younger ones it IS real. I make it clear that I can't do magic by myself as I'm not that good. It only works properly with their help.

It might not sound as if this could relate to an adult audience, but let me relate a few experiences.

On my first ever childrens show, I felt I had to show magic. I was the magician, they were the audience. You can guess how that wentr down. ( OK, but I had nobody to tell me at that time, but it was a good lesson to learn. )
I then did a mixture of magic and entertaining. I have finally ended up where the children do all the magic, I am more of the conductor.

This is what I feel happier with after trying different ways. I feel more relaxed, it suits who I am, which makes for a better show. Only after trying a few things out can you come upon the ideal type of presentation for who YOU are. The best thing is to be honest about your performance. Are you trying to project an image that is so false that you don't feel right about it? There is nothing wrong with having one persona for real lkife and one for performing, but you need to feel right about it.
Think about comedy. There are some who do stand up slagging everyione off and taking themselves seriously, while others do slapstick and have custard pies thrown in their face. Which is right? Depends on you and your audience. Learn by mistakes, rather than be disheartened. If a "real magic" approach doesn't work, sit down and go through what worked and what didn't. You may need to tweak one thing, or you may need to change tact on the whole show. It is worth being honest with yourself as you and the audience will gain rewards in entertainment that will make it worthwhile.

Darrel wrote:I have finally ended up where the children do all the magic, I am more of the conductor.

This is what I feel happier with after trying different ways. I feel more relaxed, it suits who I am, which makes for a better show.

Fully agreed - we much each find our own character. Nobody can decide that for us. But, Darrel, let me ask you a question...When that magic happens, do you believe in it yourself? Are you surprised and pleased when the kid makes that magic happen? Or, do you simply dismiss it, because it was just a trick?

You've got to believe in your own magic, otherwise you are simply doing puzzles. Again, not that there isn't a place for entertaining puzzles, but it's just that puzzles ain't magic.

Mike.

Michael Jay wrote:

Darrel wrote:I have finally ended up where the children do all the magic, I am more of the conductor.

This is what I feel happier with after trying different ways. I feel more relaxed, it suits who I am, which makes for a better show.

Fully agreed - we much each find our own character. Nobody can decide that for us. But, Darrel, let me ask you a question...When that magic happens, do you believe in it yourself? Are you surprised and pleased when the kid makes that magic happen? Or, do you simply dismiss it, because it was just a trick?

You've got to believe in your own magic, otherwise you are simply doing puzzles. Again, not that there isn't a place for entertaining puzzles, but it's just that puzzles ain't magic.

Mike.

I'll see if I can explain it Mike, but some parts may sound as if they contradict themselves.
I believe I am creating magic "moments" when the children have been calling out, waving wands etc and they have created the magic. I also know that it is me that has caused or created that moment of magic, it is just that the children are the ones to get the credit. I enjoy performing to children. This way just seems to make it more enjoyable to the audience AND me.

Without giving too much away, I will try and explain how I get them to do the magic.

Starting with something basic, such as a drawer box. I use it with other items as part of a routine. I'm not going to go through my routine, but want to let you know about the end. After the box has been seen to be empty for a while, I close it, then open it about 1/2 an inch. When it is time to open it, the volounteer, not me, opens it.. I am as suprised and pleased as everybody else when they start emptying things from an empty box.
The die box I do, I stop after all the "you're sliding it" is being called out. I admit they are right, as I need help to make the magic work. I am holding the box, doors closed, but level. Later on, when they have said the magic words etc, as far as they are concerned, the die hadn't vanished until after THEY did the magic. The impression is that they SAW the die still, right up until the last moment.

So Mike, I believe the children are doing the magic. The children believe they are doing the magic. I am making the illusion that they are doing the magic so I also believe that I am doing the magic. I did say it would sound contradictory, but it is hard to describe, as it is the feeling I get now, rather than the "I must be seen to be the magician" I started with. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, just that it is wrong for me.

im going to try and answer the question in 5 words....#

it depends on the audience...

joecarr14 wrote:im going to try and answer the question in 5 words....#

it depends on the audience...

No no no no no! It doesn't! It depends on you! You must be consistant in your belief of where your magic is coming from.

My "angle" is psychic. I use "certain techniques" that I learnt from from other psychics, and decided to use my "intuitive abilities" to entertain and amuse. Now I use this "angle" whether I'm performing for an audience of 100's, a close up audience at a wedding reception, or for my mother-in-law. In fact I've recited it all, and held it close to me for so long, that deep inside I'm pretty sure that I honestly think it's true too.

Others may use the psychology angle, the gambler & card sharp angle, or goodness knows what else. But in order for you to get the drop dead reactions you need to believe it totally during each and every routine you perform, and not chop & change it every two minutes. Listen to Mr. Jay. He is a wise man.

...But, if in those moments you cannot believe in your own magic, then you are doing your audience a disservice by claiming that you are a magician, because you are not.

That's the point of magic. If it ain't magic, then you have nothing and you've wasted a massive amount of time in learning bullsh*t.

I'm really struggling with that... Isn't it enough to act like it's magic/psychology/whatever you're passing of your trick as, rather than simply a trick?
Why is my belief so important? This isn't chaos magick, the illusion will be complete regardless of what I believe in the moment.

It strikes me that what you are saying is actually very analogous to acting. Some actors utilize a "method acting" approach and live the role. While I find that approach commendable and have seen great results from it, there are plenty of actors who do nothing of the sort and turn out equally great performances (in some cases far more nuanced).

It would be preposterous to say that method actors are proper actors and the rest are bullsh*t. Don't you think?

Palmer Eldritch wrote:

...But, if in those moments you cannot believe in your own magic, then you are doing your audience a disservice by claiming that you are a magician, because you are not.

That's the point of magic. If it ain't magic, then you have nothing and you've wasted a massive amount of time in learning bullsh*t.

I'm really struggling with that... Isn't it enough to act like it's magic/psychology/whatever you're passing of your trick as, rather than simply a trick?
Why is my belief so important? This isn't chaos magick, the illusion will be complete regardless of what I believe in the moment.

Yes, it is enough to act it. But, if you are acting as if it is magic/psychology/whatever, then you believe it, don't you? Or, you are acting as if you believe it and, if you are a good actor, then it comes down to the same thing.

For example, you explain that one thing will happen, but another does, so you act surprised. However, if you say that one thing will happen but another thing happens and you don't act surprised, then it will become quickly obvious to your audience that you knew it was going to happen anyway and the illusion of surprise is destroyed.

Regarding the illusion being complete, well, you have to ask yourself, what is the illusion that you are trying to create? Exactly what are you? If you are a card sharp (or shark - please note that there is a technical difference between the two), then you aren't going for the illusion of magic, as per se, even though you are using the same techniques. Nevertheless, if you say one thing but do another, you still have to believe that you are doing what you told them that you are doing.

Geez, how the hell to explain this...You put four kings on the table but have actually switched them for four aces. While you put those aces on the table, you still see, in your mind's eye, that you are actually placing four kings down, just like you said you were doing. You see it in your mind and you believe it in your heart. Using a "silent script" at this point would be the way to go, to help you believe that you are doing something that you are not.

It strikes me that what you are saying is actually very analogous to acting. Some actors utilize a "method acting" approach and live the role. While I find that approach commendable and have seen great results from it, there are plenty of actors who do nothing of the sort and turn out equally great performances (in some cases far more nuanced).

Of course it is very analogous to acting because it is acting. While there are differing opinions as to what his point was, Robert-Houdin stated, "'There are no magicians, just actors playing the part of a magician." So, yes, it is akin to acting.

Now, you don't have to live the part. Jeff McBride suggests that you do, in fact, live the part, but I find McBride's way quite annoying. However, whether the actor on stage is a method actor (lives the part) or an actor who uses a different technique, the fact of the matter still remains that when they are acting, they have still submersed themselves in that part and in that moment believe that they are the person who they are portraying (otherwise, they aren't acting, are they? No, they are simply reciting lines and their part will come across as two dimensional at best and totally unbelievable at worst).

So, there is no reason for you to be an annoying twit and play the part of the magician 24/7, but, when you are showing your trick, you must believe in the magic. In other words, when you doing an ambitious card routine, you don't think to yourself, "Okay, now I do this DL and put the wrong card in the middle" but rather you say to yourself, "Okay, now I take their card and put it in the middle." This is the silent script that I'm talking about that helps you to believe in your own magic.

The silent script is a very powerful technique that helps you to remain in character while doing your magic. It is given an in depth treatment in the book "Magic and Showmanship: A Handbook for Conjurers" (Nelms). I would highly recommend this book for you as it can be found at a reasonable price and is highly spoken of by Wonder, Minch, Ortiz, Hay and many, many others. In "Strong Magic" (Ortiz) you'll find the Nelms book credited and cited in somewhere around a half a dozen times throughout.

It would be preposterous to say that method actors are proper actors and the rest are bullsh*t. Don't you think?

Absolutely preposterous. Fully agreed.

However, if an actor does not believe that he is who he is pretending to be, then his performance will be very poor. And, if a magician doesn't believe in his magic, at least at the very point where he is making magic happen, then he won't be doing magic, he'll be displaying a puzzle and nothing more.

So, you decide...Are you showing puzzles or are you showing magic? If you are showing magic, then believe in your magic.

Again, I'm not saying that you try to convince anyone that magic is real or whine and cry when they sit and wonder how you did what you did - they are going to do that and it's not an insult. After the trick, you don't sit there and try to convince them that you have some dark powers welling up inside of you - you will look a fool if you do...But, when you take their card and put it in the center of the deck and with a snap of the fingers it comes to the top, then that is magic and that's what you should believe, at that very second in time.

Mike.