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But it's not a matter of trying to be clever. If you want to have a discussion about reality then you have to discuss reality. It's as simple as that. Why discuss these things? Because it helps you come to the truth. I believe there is an external world. I don't think anyone here is trying to say there isn't. It's the difference between being happy to continue in ignorance or face a humbling truth. How you choose to let that impact upon your life is down to you.

To claim that Philosophy offers nothing to improve lives just seems to me to betray a great ignorance when it comes to the matter beyond reading a few books which caught your interest while you were in Waterstones.

At the risk of trying to be clever, what is this:

I think if several probes have been launched from earth and sling shot around several planets purely using the laws of motion and the idea that earth revolves around the sun then I think it is pretty certain that maybe that concept is a sound one.

but a classic example of circular reasoning?

To claim that Philosophy offers nothing to improve lives just seems to me to betray a great ignorance when it comes to the matter beyond reading a few books which caught your interest while you were in Waterstones.

Ok yes, the origins of scientific method came from classical philosophy but after that?

All I am trying to put across is that yes you could wax lyrical on whether wht we experience is real or more an adaptation to make sense to our evolved mind. I'd rather be rather more practical about things. We are all human and, more or less, share the same kind of senses. We observe everything around us using those senses so that is our reality and to bleat on about whether it truley is or not will not yield any practical results other than making the philosophiser feel rather smart.
Wouldn't it be more prudent spending the time and energy in a field that would yield more practical results.

IMHO Douglas Adams had the right view of philosophers in HitchHiker's Guide to the Galaxy......

Markdini wrote:If it cant be seen with the human eye or heard with the human ear then it is not real.

I hope that one's facetious. Or maybe my dog is psychotic, reacting to things outside the range of human hearing, which are therefore not real.

Whit Haydn (to tie this back to magic) summed it up rather well when someone quoted Warhol's "Perception is reality" blather, saying, essentially, "Well, no...PERCEPTION is that the earth is flat. You can go outside and perceive that, and it's why people thought they'd fall off the edge. REALITY is that it's round." And before someone brings up the fact that the earth is not a perfect sphere, I think we know what he meant. Furthermore, by asserting that the earth isn't a sphere, you'd be making a statement of objective reality, anyway.

can we finish on a song?

abraxus wrote:can we finish on a song?

Altogether now!

"Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving and revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned, a sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me, and all the stars that we can see, are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour, of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'."

Come on, don't be shy!

Or...

Always look on the bright side of life!

greedoniz wrote:Philosophy is a great discipline but never comes up with anything but people (most have done an A level in it and all of a sudden know more than Bertrand Russell) trying to be overly clever by questioning the whole reality of it all.
Well if that is the case then nothing can ever be achieved as all of it is subjective to the person experiencing it all and blah blah blah.

I think if several probes have been launched from earth and sling shot around several planets purely using the laws of motion and the idea that earth revolves around the sun then I think it is pretty certain that maybe that concept is a sound one.

It's a good job there are people out there discovering, experimenting and inventing things that improve our lives.
If it were a planet of philosophers we'd all still be hurling rocks but arguing over whether they are real or not

100% agree!

Philosophy is a great discipline but never comes up with anything but people (most have done an A level in it and all of a sudden know more than Bertrand Russell) trying to be overly clever by questioning the whole reality of it all.
Well if that is the case then nothing can ever be achieved as all of it is subjective to the person experiencing it all and blah blah blah.

I think if several probes have been launched from earth and sling shot around several planets purely using the laws of motion and the idea that earth revolves around the sun then I think it is pretty certain that maybe that concept is a sound one.

It's a good job there are people out there discovering, experimenting and inventing things that improve our lives.
If it were a planet of philosophers we'd all still be hurling rocks but arguing over whether they are real or not

Conversely if everyone on earth was a scientist, presumably we'd all be shooting fusion based energy weapons at one another. So nur nur nee nur nur.

The philosophers would be sat on the rocks pondering their existence as opposed to wielding them as weapons. (With the possible exception of Nietzsche).

Seriously though; your viewpoint saddens me.

greedoniz wrote:Ok yes, the origins of scientific method came from classical philosophy but after that?

Philosophy has given us the tools to reason and argue - in which ways are these not useful in most walks of life? Furthermore reason has been significant in many mathematical breakthroughs which in turn have been integral to Physics, for instance.

Early Philosophy had a tremendous impact upon Western thinking as well; one only has to read the works of Plato and Aristotle to appreciate this. Then there is Machiavelli's "The Prince" - a slender publication whose impact upon business and politics has been vast! More recently the society we live in today has to be, in part, attributed to the writings of John Stuart Mill.

Where would Psychology be without Philosophy? The Hard Problem of Consciousness is, I'm sure you'll agree, very worthy of study and debate (and has lead to a branch which, while not perfect, certainly has its benefits).

These are of course just a few examples, but they make the point well enough I feel.

And then there is its value to individuals. I've seen people study it move from an arrogant "this is my world and this is how it all works", intolerant approach to life to a much humbler and tolerant one. This can only be a good thing surely? It enriches peoples lives, encourages discussion and debate and deeper thinking of issues which are important to us all... need I continue?!

Tomo wrote:

abraxus wrote:can we finish on a song?

Altogether now!

"Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving and revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned, a sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me, and all the stars that we can see, are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour, of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'."

Come on, don't be shy!

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.
We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.



Everybody!!

My brain aches. I'm off to talk about magic somewhere.....

Philosophy has given us the tools to reason and argue - in which ways are these not useful in most walks of life? Furthermore reason has been significant in many mathematical breakthroughs which in turn have been integral to Physics, for instance.

Well said sir...

... The majority of significant paradigm shifts in science were borne not out of some abstract scientific vacuum, but rather on the soaring wings of intuition and philosophical speculation. Take a look at how the periodic table came about; it was intuited in its completion before many of the elements had even been discovered.

Nikola Tesla drew his inspiration and insight from the Buddhist Vedas, and the smallest glimpse into Einstein's thoughts will grant you a vision of a philosophical powerhouse.

It is also true that science is informed by socio-political fetishes, needs, wants and desires; it is a whore to the prevailing aesthetic of the zeitgeist (I believe I already mentioned Cartesian Dualism and Occam's Razor).

If science was a force unto itself we would most likely have a very utilitarian technology base indeed. We don't inherently need to go to the moon (more a result of the cold war), we don't particularly need ipods or the plethora of weird disposable items that clutter our living spaces. Indeed, science is also driven by economies and economic needs.

It is a shame that science and philosophy at times seem so polarized. It is my belief that the ineffectuality of science (alone) in saying anything about art or the finer points of our emotional, subjective experience is exactly what gives the prevailing monotheistic belief systems far too much weight. If science and philosophy could only get on a little better (and in truth in the realm of theoretical physics they get on like particles trapped in a magnetic loop) then we could perhaps collectively broaden our horizons and quit it with the whole false dichotomy of science vs. religion.

Give philosophy a chance.


Oh and...

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bu**er all down here on Earth.