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A large amount of the performances of the cups and balls have started with the magician saying something to the effect of "Houdini said that you can only judge a magician by how well the preform the cups and balls trick" or they will claim Houdini saw this as a right of passage.

I have never come across any legitimate sources that confirm this, and seeing as how Houdini was an escape artist and to my knowledge did not preform the cups and balls, I find this hard to believe.

Does anyone have any information on this? Do you know where it came from?

As far as I can find out, John Mulholland wrote in the Sphinx magazine, back in 1935 that Houdini said this to him. Can't confirm this, but might be a place to start.

Is this the actual quote?

Yet to-day, if a mystifier lack the ingenuity to invent a new and startling stunt, he can safely fall back upon a trick that has been the favorite of pressagents the world over in all ages.


Found it here:

www.icelebz.com/quotes/harry_houdini

ArcticBanana wrote:seeing as how Houdini was an escape artist and to my knowledge did not preform the cups and balls, I find this hard to believe.

He did have his own magic show, you know.

ArcticBanana writes, in part, about Houdini and the cups and balls as a RITE of passage: "seeing as how Houdini was an escape artist and to my knowledge did not preform the cups and balls,. . ."

Actually, Houdini was a magician first, and only in his later career did he become an escape artist. He billed himself as the "King of Kards". He wasn't but, like so many today, that didn't stop him.

The poet Alexander Pope wrote: "A little learning is a dangerous thing."

Obviously, NO learning is worse!

I've never come across mention of Houdini performing Cups & Balls in any of his show's reviews.
I would imagine he tried it as a youngster but a number of magicians say he was not a very good(?) magician though brilliant at what he made his name with..escapology.
Possibly the Greatest Self Publicist ever( including David Blaine!)

I remember Denis Gardener( a founder member of the Nottingham Guild of Magicians) telling me around the early 70's that he had seen him and I think (memory fails) spoken to him and that he was ' Jumped up, full of himself, a lousy magician but a brilliant performer in his speciality, and really a little S*** '
As Denis( and Mr. H ) were often in Will Goldston's shop in London and actually(in latter years) showed Dante the 'Gardener improvement'! on the Beer Barrel effect, his statement could have been true.

We do have a magician in The Guild who used to try and pressure, all new applicants performed the C & B in their audition resulting in some strange and often shaky routines. I think he must have heard the quote!

We also did have one member, back in the 80's who was not very good at anything BUT the C & B. Ever clever move and handling and final load under the sun. The trouble was the routine lasted about 18 minutes and after 4 minutes no one could remeber whether there were any cups on the table let alone how many balls were underneath each!

My old mentor & friend, Burtini (dealer selling the famous chrome props) performed it many, many times. His simple routine, fast paced but not TOO fast lasted just under 3 mins and everyone could follow it. I used it for years ( every young magician should try it) only adding one more transposition of a ball to it.
In 1990 I bought Keith Bennett's brilliantly made Cups to start it all over again.
Perhaps all elderly magicians should take it up in their twlight performing
(even to themselves) years just to keep mind and fingers flexible!
Thus it would be our beginning and ??end.

The usual opening in the UK, over the years, for Cups & Balls has been 'Now I'd like to show you the oldest trick in Magic. performed in Roman times etc.'
But not please in Egyptian times.

Ok Guys, Let's have some more quotes to build this post for Arctic Monkey..sorry Banana!
Allen Tipton

If he did say that then he doesnt know what hes talking about cause that'd mean most pros arent ''real magicians''.

Secondly Dai Vernon ''marlo tilted'' houdini to death after he dubbed himself King of Kards and he was forced to swallow his pride

if ya ask me it seems as if hes an arrogant man

I'm going to say Dai Vernon didn't refer to it as the Marlo Tilt. Yes, Houdini was an arrogant man, as are many in the realm of entertainment. You need a certain level of arrogance to do what he did (and others still do). If it wasn't for his attitude, he'd have never reached the level of fame he did.

As to the quote - I've seen Dai Vernon say something similar to the "Houdini" quote - Vernon's being:

"In the old days, they used to judge a magician's skill by how well he performed the cups and balls".

As you can see, it's very similar and in this particular situation the quote has been attributed to MANY people, with all different variations on how it was actually said. I believe this particular quote has suffered from the grapevine problem over the years. The original quote has probably been altered so often by so many that neither the act words or the name of the person who first spoke them is truly remembered, anymore.

As one who performed for Marie Blood, Houdini's niece and closest living relative at the time (she has since died, and Houdini -- being sterile -- had no children), I can assure you all that Harry did say that.

And, I can equally assure you all, that he was WRONG!

To suggest, especially when you aren't particularly good at something, that everyone else must conform to a certain standard, is simply foolish.

Houdini was a very mediocre magician, a passable escape artist, but a brilliant promoter and showman.

No matter what, that can't be taken away from him.

Peter Marucci wrote:The poet Alexander Pope wrote: "A little learning is a dangerous thing."

Obviously, NO learning is worse!

Is this a jab at me? I am only asking a question, which would imply that I am trying to learn something.

Darrel wrote:As far as I can find out, John Mulholland wrote in the Sphinx magazine, back in 1935 that Houdini said this to him. Can't confirm this, but might be a place to start.

Has the Sphinx magazine ever been archived? could I find this article?

This is where I found the reference.

www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.p ... pic=209890 - 61k -

I have spent ages looking at any references and come to a dead end.
There are copies of the Sphinx for sale still, though price varies. ou might be lucky on ebay as they have them for sale, just don't know if they have the one this is supposed to be in.

The other problem is that there is also a case of Chinese Whispers. The quote varies from one person to the next, all changing it sleightly.
That is one reason I put the other quote down in the thread earlier. it would suggest that he was talking about the cups and balls but who knows?

As for the magician part, wasn't it Houdini who did the first vanish of a live elephant on stage? Could be wrong, brain hurts from a few hours of following links to dead ends.

Arctic Banana writes, in part: ". . .Houdini was an escape artist and to my knowledge did not preform the cups and balls, I find this (his statement) hard to believe."

And, in reply to me in another post: "I am only asking a question, which would imply that I am trying to learn something."

Actually, that comment is a long way from a request for information. A sincere interest in magic history, and a willingness to learn, would NOT include the comment "I find this hard to believe."

To get a proper perspective of Houdini, I think we need to take ourselves back to the time when he was alive rather than looking at him from a 21st Century perspective. He's been described in various books as brash, egotistical, aggressive, self important and many other similar words but usually the final word to describe him is Showman. Bear in mind that he learned his craft from touring the penny arcades, drinking halls and other places, often performing his card tricks up to 30 times a day - on that basis he was very skilled at doing what he did.

It was only when he was approached with the suggestion that he concentrate on the escapology effects to enable him to get work on the Keith Theatre circuit that his reputation rose above other performers. Whilst there were thousands of entertainers vying for the performance opportunities and a share of the public's money, very few others were doing what he did and possibly none were doing it in such a bold and exciting manner.

Bear in mind that in those days there were no sound systems or amplifiers so voices needed to be projected properly to ensure those right at the back of the theatre could, hear what was going on. If they couldn't hear, they'd probably throw stuff so it was important to include everyone. Very often this meant shouting so it's no wonder that Houdini (and others!) gained a reputation for being loud and occupying centre stage. The dramatic description of effects was important, if the publicity wasn't good enough then the theatre across the street would get the business.

Whilst he may not have had the widest range magical skills, the tricks he did were done well and honed over many years and, to keep ahead of the rest, he had to try new stuff otherwise people wouldn't pay to see him. He was unique and I envy all those who were around in those days to see him perform.

He must have had something. How many other magicians are (or will be) household names more than 80 years after their death?

Barry

Mandrake writes, in part: ". . . (Houdini's) been described in various books as brash, egotistical, aggressive, self important and many other similar words but usually the final word to describe him is Showman. . . ."

Very correct.

However, most headliners, of that era, were brash, egotistical, etc. Take Al Jolson, Eddie Cantor, Mae West, etc.

They began low on the bill and, through their own efforts, made it to the top. Once there, everyone else was willing to be an expert on what they should do. No wonder they became aggresive; they had to, to survive!

Houdini still remains as the master showman and promoter: His "free" outdoor shows, his movie work, his flying; all contributed to that.