talkmagic.co.uk

Instead of the usual post that some of the more “uppity mini mods of tm write” When some asks what is the name of this shuffle or what is the name of the book where I can find such and such. And said Mini-mods jumps up and down shouting exposure. Or the 5000 odd post of how do I open a deck of cards. I once saw a post on here I kid you not “What in the most natural way of holding a mobile phone” you may have noticed my absence from the forum you may have not I don’t really care. But I have been thinking about Magic real magic. Mini-mods be prepared for what I am about to say you might cry.

I was watching Anytime anywhere by Sankey the other day and it got me thinking as ones mind does on a cold febuarry night in London town. Sankey does what I term “Organic magic” apologies to Greedo for juxtaposing the wrong word. I know this is a pet pev of his.

It is one thing to use a nice shimmering aluminium chop cup. But its another to use their just used cup from Star bucks. I expect a tsunami of comments saying “I use the chop cup all the time I have been in the business 10000 years and all ways use one.” this may be the case but. Who do you know except other magicians who have a small aluminium cup with out a handle? Apart from Mr Browning probably knows some one from the annuals of history who use to drink from one. Some one most of us have never heard of either.
Producing a small velvet-(tine) bag with a highly polished cup in screams IT’S A TRICK and as Ortiz says “Magic should never be a puzzle” using a plastic/polystyrene cup is a lot stronger then again that’s my opinion

Next we move on to the humble ball of sponge. Put your pitchforks down that’s another problem in our art that if someone challenges the norm some keyboard jockey will be enraged “That’s not the way to do it” I love sponges I do I waxed lyrical about them for ages see here http://www.talkmagic.co.uk/ftopic15542. ... ght=sponge but then again who carries them around they become suspicious why would a grown man be carrying around sponge balls with them? Why on earth unless he is a bit touched. (I include me in the last statement) Greg Wilson on the spot uses rolled up cocktail napkins to make sponges with surely this is a lot stronger in a specs mind. Again using natural organic to that area materials. I expect a torrent of “I use sponges all the time blah blah” and I say to you sir you have not clicked that convenient link I have supplied.

Whilst talking about napkins use them instead of silks if you are gentle enough and ingenious enough you can get away with that.

It comes down to this people : The more magical your props look the less magical your performance to the specs would be. Osterlind on ETMM said about keeping props to a minimum and a I agree. There is a thing that bronz does he floats a ring not all round the gaff chasing it like a lunatic going ooo its getting away. No he suspends it for 3 seconds max. Now a big silver ball with a cloth over it what is stronger?

A fine example of “Organic magic” is Sankeys killer key, where a key and coin transpose both natural objects and that’s more believable then say a very strange ball and a plug changing places.

What would you sooner want a spec saying “He used my coin and vanished it and I found it in my shirt pocket I will never forget that” or He had some strange tube ….

Of course you can have props and gimmicks Killer key uses one but it looks natural. Comments and complaints to the usual address

The most important fault that I have with this post is : How does this make me more money as a magician? Working professionals use high quality props because the look better. Sure, you can do a cups and balls routine with a bunch of paper cups from star bucks or Macdonald's, there are even times when it looks better. But I am of the opinion that it simply looks more professional to use high quality props, people are paying you to be there, you use nice props for the same reason you wear a nice suit when you are preforming at the wedding.

You can present a more organic natural you at a performance by not shaving or showering for a couple of days too ... But I doubt that would get you more bookings either.

I do see your point, the whole 'impromptu' magic thing does have it's benefits. It looks great when you do a sponge routine in a pub using rolled up napkins for your friends. They still know it's a trick though, just like the people who book you for that wedding or function know it is a trick. But they are paying you, so you need to look your best. You are a magician, THAT is why you are carrying little red sponges and shiny brass cups with no handles.

I will, for now, ignore the improper use of both juxtapose and organic and instead move on to addressing your points.
Firstly I rarely agree with 'dini as he is a reactionary sort and not prone to well thought out argumentitive propositions but rather the rantings of someone who has lived in a cave for several years with nothing to read but the Daily Mail. But here I reckon he is pretty darn right.

What I would add however (I never like to fully agree, where is the fun?) that if the props are introduced as part of the patter of an effect and are given believable justification to be there it will not harm and maybe will enhance the routine.
I think it is a matter for each performer to go through all they perform and try to think how it is perceived by their audience and whether they will buy into the performance or not.

I also agree with oeb-bie that the props have to suit the performer; If you're in a top hat and tails then styrene cup aint gonna go down as well as a silver plated one.
We are after all (well most of us) playing a character of sorts and giving our audiences a performance not a reflection of the real world....in fact we are trying to lead our audiences into a unreal world, a world where magic can occur.

I think it's all about the time and the place, if you're sat in Burger King and you want to impress the little herbert on the next table then use their cocacola cup. Rolled up napkins, now there's a good idea if you're out for a dinner and someone asks to see something.

I'm sure that it's well worth thinking about these sorts of things as it really does open up what you can do and when. But I'm not sure that it looks all that professional.

If I was doing a gig, I don't really think I'd want to show up with a tatty old Mc Donalds milkshake cup. But some nice ideas there Mark, I like the way you're thinking and I'm sure that it'd work well for some people but just don't think it'd fit me all too well.

My dear friend from the emerald isle is right in one way. In the other he is wrong. Using the stuff around you creates the idea you are a magician rather then some one who uses/does tricks. I understand the chap is stating that this does indeed add a certain elegance to the performance but most people wouldn’t have a tacky stuff at a wedding not us Daily Mail types any way. Using there stuff is by far stronger then using yours. Like the magic happening in there hands rather then yours.

Ah to address my friend and Jay Sankey look-a-like Mr Niz. I shall ignore his comments about the cave we are at two opposite ends of the political spectrum and he wont change gawd bless him. But we do have the same views on magic 9 times out of 10. It is also his fault I am reading strong magic at the moment. I agree with his comments that it can work with patter but I say 75% of your stuff should like everyday items and the other 25% a sense of wonder. But not over the top.

Why not both?

What you are saying has been discussed on here many times before, it's basically "impromptu or not" in slightly different clothing.

My comment - as a magician, you are expected to be able to perform magic under different situations. Down the pub, at a party, at a special event. As long as the magic is about you and not the props, I have no problem with using them... or not.

It's about knowing what's appropriate, and I totally agree with Oeb about this. Yes, you should have some magic to perform with napkins, forks etc., but if I hired a magician for a function and all he did was go around doing things with corks, matchsticks etc. I'd feel a bit cheated - he's a pro, he should have some "bigger" effects thought out.

What do you think a magician should be? Should it be someone who appears to do impossible things, even if it's with something you've not seen before? Or someone who needs no extra items whatsoever?

I think to say things like "yeah, but who has those little sponge balls with them apart from magicians" is a narrowminded comment, and I have honestly not come across one "layperson" who says such things - it's always over-thinking magicians. Because - wait for it - you are a magician! So it's perfectly natural for you to have those things, because you use them to perform magic. Regardless of the fact that it's a slightly unusual item, they get to handle them, and you still make them do seemingly impossible things - disappear, jump into people's hands etc. Not once have I had someone say, after performing the spongeballs, "yeah, but could you do that with corks?"

Who has a wand, or a top hat, or a rabbit with them? Who carries playing cards?!

As a magician, you are a plying your trade, and people expect you to have apparatus. Juggling clubs/knives/balls are manufactured for optimum grip and balance, and if we all thought about it, it probably would be harder for them to juggle with baseball bats or kitchen knives. But again, a juggler has an established "job", and with it comes the paraphenalia - you expect them to bring their own juggling gear to the gig.

As long as you make the magic about you or about them, and not about the props, there should be no problem.

And I might as well ask the usual question - what about the thumb-tip? Or the cigarette pull? Is that "organic"? Because the specs only see the salt or the cigarette vanish...

What annoys me a little about your post Markdini is not the question itself but the supposition that it is something controversial and revolutionary when we have been over this on the forum many, many times before

Close down the churches is that better? shoot the students in a communist China style fashion. Is that more controversial for you?

Firstly don’t be so reactionary. If you want to carry all that in your pocket My good soon to be Dr then so be it. If you are doing something impossible with something that looks like its built to do the impossible then you are not really doing the impossible. If you have something ordinary and do the impossible….

And the question about TTs is just silly, do you stick yours on the table let all to see and then use it? If so that’s where you are going wrong.

Jugglers etc are not magicians sorry L-dawg and you know it. They are expected to carry balls. And I did not say don’t carry cards. My argument is garish looking props but then again the church is fall of them.

There is another thing you mention about wands, instead of a wand use a pen its not rocket science really. Spun cups etc in my view look rather tacky but if you lot want to use them its up to you. I am offering alternatives here but as usual a lot of people don’t want to move on. No wonder why magic is a dying art. When the movement it self is against change.

dini, you crack me up you really do!

I agree with organic magic being stronger, but lets not dismiss genetically modified magic offhand eh!

at a wedding poly cups would indeed look a bit out of place, but there lies the idea of organic and being adaptable. If they have teacups, then why not use them...likewise, best bone china teacups would look a touch odd in macdonalds or similar.

borrowed objects, things lying about anything "ordinary looking", even the trusty notepad can help make the unbelievable more credible than prop based effects, not that there isnt a place for them too.

...I just though I would bring it to the attention that when 'Dini describes it being "Greedo's fault that I'm reading Strong magic" he does actually mean that he received the book today, has read a few pages and then decided he is the number one authority on magic theology.
Ahhhh the reactionary debatist 'Dini and his crazy schemes. I love it and is the main reason TM is worth revisiting time and again....

Actually while I remember he has also recently thrown off his mentalist shackles and is delving deep into the world of close-up magic. A dark day for mentalism or for magic.....you decide

Wow, you posted a very good idea and some fair comment. But it was put along with some fairly strong flame-bait...
Anyway, I agree with you're basic statement, as i've posted I'm building up my collection of tricks and at the moment I'm focussing on tricks done with everyday items.
This was a consciou decision and one I made because it suits my style to do something out of the blue with an everyday item and freak people out. Thats where I'm at in experience and skill. I'm not ready to walk around with a deck of cards, a top hat or other obvious props, as soon as specs see them they're expectant and on the alert. Maybe eventually i'll grow out of this and want to walk around carrying a deck of cards or a set of sponges. Those props that make people aware of iminent trick-age.
Then again maybe I wont, maybe this is where I belong.
I think Lady of Mystery got it right, it's down to the setting and the magicians style. If you're walking around doing street magic then surely a McDonalds/Starbucks cup would be a suitable prop, if you're in a function room/restaurant maybe the finest of sterling silver chop mugs is gonna fit better. But both of these considerations could be over ridden by the magicians style.
We're all individuals and surely so is our magic.

-Cyn-

what do you mean first pages? I just read the back page. Sod going through the whole thing i might die tommrow and would have wasted all that time.

And pray tell what crazy schemes are they? I speak sense I tell you.

Hmmm - I read 'Dini's opening post and found it quite well thought out, it asks some searching questions and shows a reasonable level of critical thinking. My first thought was...

"OK, who has stolen 'dini's identity and posted here - give him back now!"

Anyway, the way I see it is that Mr Dini is looking at magic from a mentalists viewpoint. As mental people we strive to have everything we use look as normal as possible, we use our special wallets as everyday wallets to weather them, gimmicks and gaffs are made to look as normal as possible. Anything that looks anything other than completely normal will set alarm bells ringing in the spectators minds.

However, magic is a different ballgame. The spectators are prepared to suspend logical thinking long enough to allow you to perform each trick. Any sane person knows that the coin hasn't really travelled up your arm, across your shoulders and back down the other arm - but they are still amazed when it does just that!

Maybe the 'dini is actually getting more riled with the e-kids, buying new tricks left right and centre and actually having no knowledge of the basics. Wannabe magicians who think they can shortcut their way to fame and fortune by buying the latest super kewl fab awesome mind blowing trick then performing it badly.

As for props though - within magic they have to look the part - I expect to see a magician pull a rabbit out of a top hat, it just wouldn't be the same to see him pulling it out of his hoody. Let the props be glitzy and flashy, but also let me be able to examine them - that helps create the magic.

How often do you hear a spec say something along the lines of "well, I looked in the bag and it was empty" or "there was nothing in the magic box when I put the lid on it"

The props are part of the show in magic, but they are totally hidden in mentalism.

Is it props that are upsetting Mr Dini, or the kids who can't perform without them?

Markdini wrote:I am offering alternatives here but as usual a lot of people don’t want to move on. No wonder why magic is a dying art. When the movement it self is against change.

'Dini - this comment is why I may have come across as reactionary. Please don't misunderstand - I don't fully disagree with you, in fact I think by and large I agree with you about using every day objects, making things seem organic. I love magic with bottle caps, chewing gum and all the rest of it. But your posts are making you sound like you're the first guy to suggest this - like you're thoughts on the issue are wildly progressive and are saving magic - they're not, we've been down this route plenty of times before.

And the conclusion is almost always the same - it's a personal choice, a matter of style, and an issue of being appropriate to the place and people you are performing for.

My point about the TT etc. was this: you have to carry a TT to do a salt vanish or similar, you have to have a cigarette pull set up to do that cigarette vanish (I know there are other ways of doing it but bear with me). But the specs never see it - you're doing what comes across as an "organic trick", but you're still filling your pockets with secret bits and bobs, just like if you use a chop mug, it may look less suspicious, but you still have to use a specific mug. So are you referring to tricks that are done with every day items and nothing else (like Crazy Man's Handcuffs, or a two-in-the-hand... routine), which you could
truly do with pretty much no set-up or secret items, or things that just seem to be on the spur of the moment? Because in terms of pocket-filling and prep, some of the seemingly "spur of the moment" tricks take the most careful preparation or the most devious gimmicks!

What I am not arguing for is carrying around a Finger Chopper and a Magic Money Printer. But if performed correctly, your specs should be able to examine say, the chop cup, or the sponge balls, and find nothing untoward with them. And there are plenty of places where napkins aren't available - put simply, if you do a trick where you make something disappear and reappear in someone's hand, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that you would carry small, simple props that would enable you to perform it wherever you went.

I think there is a presumption here that magic using "props" will be totally unrelated to life, or will be suspicious. Let me pull a few effects that I do out as examples:
The Web: who carries cards with a spider webs on them, or a plastic spider for that matter? But the "effect" is the surprise production of the spider on the back of their hand - whether they are "trick cards" or it's a "trick spider" is irrelevant really.
Spellbinding boxes: they're probably "trick boxes". Well, they are... but still, how did the magician vanish the coin, and get them inside the concentric boxes so effortlessly? They're full examinable anyway.
Holy Moly: Again, "odd" props in the sense that there's no reason someone should carry washers, but again, they're examinable at the end, and the method still seems totally impossible.

Hence, I'm arguing that "prop tricks" are not inherently less impossible or magical. What the magician needs to do is decide which is more appropriate.

Markdini (the obviously unimaginative) is correct when it comes to using generic props.

YOU are the magic; NOT the props; not the shiny silver chop cup or the box with the wonderfully lacquered dragons

Horowitz would be a brilliant musician (if he weren't dead) on the steam calliope as well as the piano.

Props are only props; the magic is in you

Farlsy I forgive ya because thats type of guy I am. I am not saying dont use things I am saying if you can do it in an "organic way" actually when you think of Holy moly two washers are a natural thing and the strange washer they end up with works well. Of course we both know that the spe knows you cant pull the hole of a washer. Also with the web thats a trick that all though uses strange things can be real. Spec know about plastic spiders etc.