talkmagic.co.uk

thanks for all the advice guys - working on a presentation tonight to deliver for thursday so trying not to dwell on it but Ill let you know what I decide afterwards.

and good work on finding that link abraxus!!

Hi UC,
A few thoughts:
a) This is run by a medical student, so "they" won't be paying themselves - the people who organise it will probably get free tickets, but they will work hard for that. I've got friends who run these things and it's basically all they do for a good few weeks previously, and they'll have deadlines too.

b) They are doing this on a price of £10 per head, which I think is quite reasonable given the stuff you get - the venue will cost plenty, plus the food, DJ etc. By offering you two free tickets, they are not only forgoing £10 towards the charity, but are wringing out £20 from the already tight per-head budget.

c) I'm afraid I think Dat is wrong... From that link, this looks a lot like one student's charitable project. Jo, whoever she is, is donating to those "big charities", but she herself will be just a student and have no endless supply of charitable funds, in fact what with little costs here and there going unaccounted for, I expect this will personally cost her significantly more than the price of her own ticket. There are loads of these set up by med-students - small little "projects" or "charities" which basically exist to fundraise and raise awareness for bigger causes. Then, if they work well and future generations of students want to continue them, they may grow big enough to start actually using the funds to implement direct social action themselves. In a nutshell, I think far more pennies per pound will be going to a good cause from this kind of event than many "charitable" occasions, and the main thing Jo Kyte will receive is a warm glow and something good to put on her CV. The reason they've only raised a small amount so far is probably because they're only small - this is perhaps the first event of this size they've put on. Otherwise we're talking cake sales and sponsored silences!

d) "Expenses" means nothing really, it's still money. By asking for two free tickets plus £25 expenses and possibly free drinks, you are basically asking for around £60. That's not really "working for nothing", is it?

e) Dude - what tricks are you doing?! Can't you just select some tricks which don't require five flashpads, seven decks and a wad of expensive gaffs?

f) If your expenses really are unavoidably £25, can't you get your "plus 1" to be sport and give you a bit of money for their free ticket? As you're getting in free anyway, can't you see it as "I'm getting two tickets worth £15 each for £25", because I expect you'll have fun too!


I can see where you're coming from mate - as a skilled hobbyist myself who is trying to break into bits of paid work, and coming up against people who "oh, just want a few card tricks, we weren't really expecting to pay, but I'm sure you'll enjoy it..." this can be frustrating, but I have a pretty good understanding of this kind of event and I honestly don't think anyone's trying to screw you over - much as I can see your point, I can also see it from her side - she contacts you to see if you'd mind donating your time and skills to help a good cause, knowing you're not a professional, and gets asked for £25 for the pleasure!

Overall, I think you should do it, waiver your fee, whittle down your expenses and go to have a good time whilst using it to promote yourself as much as possible. Trust me, medics love p*ss-ups, and they'll hold several non-charitable events a year... also, committees talk. They'll also be on a budget and keen to hire a non-professional magician for a knock-down price, so if you can prove yourself on that night you will have some excellent potential gigs in the future.

Long post - sorry! Hope it helps though.

I can only post this on how I would think it through, as I haven't the experience.

Could I afford to do the gig? I presume the £25 includes travel etc, not just expendable props.

Could I afford NOT to do the gig? I need to gain more experience, so could I afford to turn down the chance to get more real performances down?

Would I ask if I could give away my details if anybody asked? Yes, which could well mean that one show that costs £25 could lead to others that I can charge for. If nobody asks for details, it gives me the opportunity to work out why not. Is it my performance, type of event, type or age of audience etc. Helps to find what audience to aim for.

£25 to be able to learn from putting on a real performance, regardless of any bookings you may get as a result. Unless you feel you don't need the experience of a real performance, I would say just look forward to the positives.
You can always check your diary if they ask you next year, saying that you would love to, but you are unfortunately booked up already.

I just this second bagged a charity gig.....Im not getting paid, but they are putting my mug on every menu and plasma screen at a football stadium!!!! 500 peeps at the event..........

Thats gotta be good advertising for free!

First off not ALL charity s have money!

From a charity point 0f view – as a trustee for a national charity www.steps-chairyt.org.uk) - They SHOULD be paying for entertainment and bar etc etc. The charity are expected to have outgoings and need to prove that they are spending their money - to help the cause they are for - but this may include spending on events etc. If they put on the event this year and SPEND virtually £0 on ents and next year they can not get anyone for free they are in the doo doo! It means that suddenly they have a much bigger overhead and it’s come from “nowhere”.

The BEST option is this (this is how I handle my expenses for STEPS as a trustee). I claim all my expense (which are based on government figures for petrol / mileage etc) but either keep an eye on my actual cost i.e. how much petrol I used and donate the rest back As a tax payer I get to gift aid it and they get 30% extra gift aid! If I am flush I will donate it all back so in other works I may get £100 expenses – STEPS gets £130 back for me attending a meeting – as well as my time which I give for free. WIN WIN situation.

I would suggest that they for next year PAY ALL their ents staff! But they can negotiate that the performer may want to donate a substantial amount back to the charity. Then also if you waive your fee and donate it back you can claim the tax back (as someone else mentioned).

There is ONE MORE option (but may not have time this year – suggest it to her for future). Find the cost up front for a pro magician – she then approaches a local company and asks them to sponsor the magician then if the magician is a friend and decide to donate their fee back everyone WINS!

I do feel it is really important for charities to know where their costs are and exactly how much it is really costing (even if that cost is donated back).

On the other hand this is NOT a charity organising the event but a student who is organising an event and giving the raised money to charity. There are scam artists out there (NOT saying this lass is one!) who set up massive “charity gigs” and charge £100 a ticket or what ever and then after the even the profit is split between x – y and z charity and they get £10 each. The profit being what ever is left after the unscrupulous organiser has paid himself (or herself) and tier staff. And the sad thing is it is not illegal as long as an amount goes to that named charity.

Its short notice for this event – but my advice would be Do this gig! Do it for free (plus the ticket for your +1) get permission to give out your business card (see Tim Ellis’ DVD “Ellis in wonderland” for an EXCELLENT way to do this!) and wear a badge saying tips welcome (again get permission) – if you take nay tips take out a percentage up to your travel costs. But do check with the organiser if it’s ok! You may not want to do the tips bit? Also make it clear you the organiser that you will be charging next time – but that it is not unusual for a charity event to have to pay up to £300+ for a pro performer – you can say that you will do it for less if you want. If it's a charity you like then you may do it for free – but don’t forget the receipt for the tax purposes (even if you’re not full time pro!)

Any how – just my thoughts – it is a difficult one … on one hand a good schmoozing opportunity but on the other you should not be taken fro granted – like I said next time who knows what they will do if they cant find a volunteer.

First off not ALL charity s have money!

From a charity point 0f view – as a trustee for a national charity www.steps-chairyt.org.uk) - They SHOULD be paying for entertainment and bar etc etc. The charity are expected to have outgoings and need to prove that they are spending their money - to help the cause they are for - but this may include spending on events etc. If they put on the event this year and SPEND virtually £0 on ents and next year they can not get anyone for free they are in the doo doo! It means that suddenly they have a much bigger overhead and it’s come from “nowhere”.

The BEST option is this (this is how I handle my expenses for STEPS as a trustee). I claim all my expense (which are based on government figures for petrol / mileage etc) but either keep an eye on my actual cost i.e. how much petrol I used and donate the rest back As a tax payer I get to gift aid it and they get 30% extra gift aid! If I am flush I will donate it all back so in other works I may get £100 expenses – STEPS gets £130 back for me attending a meeting – as well as my time which I give for free. WIN WIN situation.

I would suggest that they for next year PAY ALL their ents staff! But they can negotiate that the performer may want to donate a substantial amount back to the charity. Then also if you waive your fee and donate it back you can claim the tax back (as someone else mentioned).

There is ONE MORE option (but may not have time this year – suggest it to her for future). Find the cost up front for a pro magician – she then approaches a local company and asks them to sponsor the magician then if the magician is a friend and decide to donate their fee back everyone WINS!

I do feel it is really important for charities to know where their costs are and exactly how much it is really costing (even if that cost is donated back).

On the other hand this is NOT a charity organising the event but a student who is organising an event and giving the raised money to charity. There are scam artists out there (NOT saying this lass is one!) who set up massive “charity gigs” and charge £100 a ticket or what ever and then after the even the profit is split between x – y and z charity and they get £10 each. The profit being what ever is left after the unscrupulous organiser has paid himself (or herself) and tier staff. And the sad thing is it is not illegal as long as an amount goes to that named charity.

Its short notice for this event – but my advice would be Do this gig! Do it for free (plus the ticket for your +1) get permission to give out your business card (see Tim Ellis’ DVD “Ellis in wonderland” for an EXCELLENT way to do this!) and wear a badge saying tips welcome (again get permission) – if you take nay tips take out a percentage up to your travel costs. But do check with the organiser if it’s ok! You may not want to do the tips bit? Also make it clear you the organiser that you will be charging next time – but that it is not unusual for a charity event to have to pay up to £300+ for a pro performer – you can say that you will do it for less if you want. If it's a charity you like then you may do it for free – but don’t forget the receipt for the tax purposes (even if you’re not full time pro!)

Any how – just my thoughts – it is a difficult one … on one hand a good schmoozing opportunity but on the other you should not be taken fro granted – like I said next time who knows what they will do if they cant find a volunteer.

I work for a charity and have worked for and been trustees of others in the past. One of the problems is that big charities pay events managers on huge salaries to give the doe eyes and say they can't afford it can we have it for free..... The small charities where they are unpaid tend to be scared of spending money in case someone complains. They are almost scared of spending someone elses money. The bottom line is they have to learn to pay. If you like the charity and the people and how they have treated you (I have been treated like a prince and also like scum) then give the fee or part of it back on the night.
Also the good publicity line is always touted. Well paul daniels can come and do my bbq in the summer for free, a couple of my drunk mates could hire him at a later date so its a bit cheaky that he want's to charge
I have a phone call comeing from a charity and she is a hard bargainer. She always say's 'well it will be good publicity'. But the gig is so far away that any potential clients will cost the earth in time and petrol to get too.
Perhaps saying that there is a pro magician on the flyers is good publicity for the event itself and should sell a few more tickets to more than cover the costs.
I know none of this is helpfull for this event, but if you knew how much SOME of these big charities waste you would not be afraid to double your charges

wise words nad intersting to have another charity related person ........

Its like street work in a way - you need to educate your audience that they are expected o pay up.

The problem here is the fact that it is not a direct link to the cahrity - they may not even know htat the event is on?

i do think you should do charity work and believe it is only right to do so. But at the same time they should not take you for granted. its interesting that the previouse post pointed out that she has been treated well adn badly in the past. Lets be honet you woudl think that most cahritys would treat people well - but unfortuanatly not always - and certainly not always outside agences working "on behalf of the cahrity" but thats a L--O--N--G--D--R--A--W--N--O--U--T story.

Hey Abraxus,

Would you happen to be a university staff/student? If so would love to meet up.

Hey Alex, how come the high expenses? I'll be popping along as well, so should be good fun. Not sure how long I'll be there tho

It might have been different if you had stated your FEE + EXPENSES in the very first email and offered to waive the FEE since its for charity. Even if they approach in a very chatty informal way (best for getting applying social pressure) you should keep communication businesslike. If they reply saying they cant afford the expenses you can always write back offering to drop the expenses if you want the gig for the experience.

Its worth bearing in mind that you were not approached by a charity but an individual who promises to donate some of the money raised by the event to certain charities. You can always choose to donate your expenses directly to the charities after the event.

The argument for claiming expenses is that if someone pays for something they usually try to get the best out of it. In your case, it means the event organisers making sure everyone at the event knows youre there and is on the look out for you. I know people who have done similar gigs with almost no support from the organisers once they turn up. People at the event had no idea magicians were working and when they saw a guy with his cards out just assumed he was another party goer with a pack of cards. The organisers also paid little attention to how they were use the magicians meaning the environment was not the best it could be. When some money changes hands the organisers make sure they get their moneys worth putting some thought into how the magician will work.

If you donate your expenses directly to the charity - you get the benefits of organisers wanting to use your skills more productively with the paying guests getting the benefit of better organise magic entertain - with no loss to the good cause.

Its all by the by now. If you do the gig tell us how it went down. Good luck.

Hey all,

Did the gig - was a lot of fun! As I wasnt paid, I tried some new stuff - bill switch went down a storm. Tried a couple of new card routines too, but they didnt go down so well. All in all a wicked evening.

However - got myself into a similar situation. Basically did a gig last year - paid really well. I was asked back this year to perform, but with the excuse of low budgets, they have asked me to work from 8-12 (fairly long I felt considering I usually do a set of around 2 hours!) for £50. Last year I got much more.

Some of my friends will be there so the prospect of being able to have fun would be nice, but the event finishes @ 2am, so doesnt give me long. I have asked for a free entertainments ticket to bring a friend but this has been rejected. Just wanted to know your thoughts. Notice how they at first ask for 1 hour of performance. Whilst I want to do the gig, I feel I attract the mickey takers somewhat. The email conversation follows:

Client:
Hi Alex thanks for your message we had a meeting today and all we would be able to offer you is a performers pass and £50 , wed want you to do magical things around the grounds for like an hour or so..what do you think?
thanks

Me:
That sounds reasonable - however the prospect of being able to walk around the tents for the entertainments would be slightly lost if I had no one to go with. If you could include a free ents pass with that so I could bring a guest with me I'd be willing to do some magic?

Couple of questions though:

Can you confirm the date of the event?
How many people (approx) will be in attendance?
What time frame would you be looking for me to work - during the meal itself? After the meal (walkaround)?

Cheers,

Alex Moisley
Magician




Client:
Hey Alex,
We can offer you the £50 but for £50 and an ents ticket I will have to discuss with the rest of the committee tomorrow at our weekly meeting. I can let you know then.
Thanks,

Me:
Cheers Beanie - let me know!

Alex Beanie Jean


Client:
hi alex sorry i didnt get back to you weds night but ive had two exams alreday - not a fan! anyway...ok i talked to teh rest of the team and the best we can do is £50 for 8-12 pm.
so yeh we can give u £50 and you can enjoy the ball at the same time! woo!
What do you think?

Hmmm... is this another "charidee" thing? What makes this one slightly more difficult is they have previously paid you more, so if they were happy with the deal they got last time it's a bit mean to try to squeeze you tighter this year, as presumably you'll be a better magician anyway!

I think the considerations here are - how long you do magic for, and how long you stay to enjoy yourself, and whether or not you'd actually enjoy yourself without your plus 1. So, looking at the email and based on the fact they've offered you £50 for 1 hour already, I'd go with offering them:

a) Either one ents pass plus £50 for 1 hour. Less fun but better payrate.

b) Two passes and £50 for 4 hours. Poorer payrate but more fun for you. That is a great deal for them, you'd hope they'd realise that. I don't think you should do four hours on your tod for £50, that's a loooooooooong gig.

they paid you well the first time now they have the cheek to undervalue your talent and refuse you a guest.
professionaly i'd tell them that if they don't value your talent then you'll cross them off your list and go else ware, that type of reference you can live without.

personaly you have to decide wether your being taken the mikey out of or wether there genuinely on a small budget.
try to find out what there charging and what the catering budget is, a good benchmark is security often classed as the donkey workers when budgeting, I have some experience in this area.
if there paid more on an hourly rate than you then your not only undervalued but treated as an ass, the choice is then yours.