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by **Mark Chandaue** » Jul 2nd, '04, 19:33

Sorry Toad but you couldn't be more wrong, Masonic ritual is founded in the bible and has no occultist foundation. In fact many masonic rituals basically just act out stories from the bible particularly those parts concerned with the building of King Solomons temple. Far from Christians being anti masonic type ritulas a belief in god is a prime requisite for being a freemason, and some parts of masonry only christians are allowed. The foundations of masonry are entirely christian in nature and while it is considered non denominational its rituals are all derived from within the Christian bible. Far from being ill bothered to debate the subject, my guess is that you are too ill informed to debate it.

Mark

by **GeoC** » Jul 2nd, '04, 22:47

I think this getting away from my original Questioning but I have to agree with Mark Chandaue. I was brought up roman catholic and I am a past master in a Masonic lodge. Their rituals did not conflict with my religious beliefs and were not occult.

I only mentioned the Masonic thing as the first club I was in had office bearer positions that were a direct lift from lodge positions there Initiation ceremony was in no way Masonic.

The jury still seem to be out on the good/bad thing,

But I am still interested as to what clubs have them or why they no longer use them

by **Happy Toad** » Jul 2nd, '04, 22:50

Yeah I guessed someone might take that attitude, Perhaps you ought to read some of the books by ex Masons that have left upon becoming Christians as I have. I could throw my qualifications at you for being able to speak on the subject and I'm quite certain they would be far greater than yours, however whatever you may think of my views, the point I'm making is that it is a view held by many Christians. Whether you happen to agree with it or not is not really the issue.

As to your point about a belief in god being a requisite, that has no bearing on the issue unless it is the Christian God. If you read the books of those that have left after being high up, you will discover that the god of the masons is not the God of the Bible.

The reason I don't wish to debate the issue is quite simply it is completely irrelevant to the question and to magic.

by **Mark Chandaue** » Jul 3rd, '04, 00:07

Happy Toad wrote:Yeah I guessed someone might take that attitude, Perhaps you ought to read some of the books by ex Masons that have left upon becoming Christians as I have. I could throw my qualifications at you for being able to speak on the subject and I'm quite certain they would be far greater than yours, however whatever you may think of my views, the point I'm making is that it is a view held by many Christians. Whether you happen to agree with it or not is not really the issue.
.

I doubt your qualifications are greater than mine considering I am both a fairly senior mason and have been a Christian since childhood. I'd love to know your qualification to speak on the subject of masonry, I have attended a few hundred lodge meetings in 4 different masonic orders and am in a senior position in 3 of them, how many meetings have you attended? How much of the ritual have you actually seen or read?.

Rather than reading books by "supposed" ex masons go into any masonic regalia shop and buy a copy of the ritual (yes anyone can buy them). You will find that the truth is a million miles from books like "The Brotherhood" (written by a non mason btw). Here's an extract from the initiation ceremony though "As we are not all operative masons we apply these tools to morals, in this sense the 24 inch guage represents the 24 hours in a day part to be spent in prayer to almighty god part to be spent in labour and refreshment, and part to be spent in helping a friend or brother at time of need. I can quote you hundreds of extracts of the ritual compatibile with Christianity, I can't quote you a single line of the ritual that isn't. Hell even the Pope says that Masonry isn't incompatible with the Church, I guess his qualifications aren't up to much either.

I doubt many masons leave on becoming Christians considering a belief in God is a requirement of membership which means that in the Western world most masons are Christians before joining. Many masonic orders including the Royal Arch and Royal Ark Mariners (both of which I am a member) are only open to Christians.

However regarding the initial subject, an initiation ceremony neither has to be masonic in nature nor incompatible with the church. Many clubs have them and as I said in my prior post, it all depends on the content of the ceremony, it could be as simple as wearing Merlin costume and promising never to reveal the secrets of magic to a non magician.

Mark

by **Happy Toad** » Jul 3rd, '04, 00:49

Mark My area of expertise is the Bible and Christian belief along with Cults and Occultism.

Statements you make such as the Pope agreeing that Masonry isn't incompatible with the Church, is meaningless to many evangelical Christians that would not accept the Pope as a Christian or indeed the Roman Catholic Church.

Statements including the words almighty god prove nothing, all cults and even Satanists have statements along these lines.

Yuor statement

which means that in the Western world most masons are Christians before joining.

suggests to me that you have a very loose understanding of what a Christian is and this is probably the root of our disagreement.

The word Christian has become rather meaningless in our modern society, some people think they are Christian because they are born in a "Christian" country or because they have been Christened or they go to Church etc. The true definition of a Christian does not depend on current thinking but what the Bible say's a Christian is. Maybe I should have said those that believe and follow the Bible are likely to have a problem with such rituals.

Let me again state my original point and this is not an opinion it is a fact, a large number of Christians would have a problem with Masonic rituals.

Go buy any Christian book dealing with cults and in particular Mormons, take a look at the comments about the fact that the founder Joseph Smith was a Mason and you will begin to understand the view of many.

You may wish to defend what you see as the truth about Masons but as I keep saying that is not the issue, the issue is how people will respond to such ceremonies. I have given my opinion and then added what I know to be the opinion of a large number of people. I have no interest in debating the merits of such a view on a magic forum.

by **Happy Toad** » Jul 3rd, '04, 01:02

Just done a quick search on free masons to make my point.

http://www.gotquestions.org/free-masonry.html

http://www.nisbett.com/freemasonry/free03.htm

http://www.ephesians5-11.org/

http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org/ml_serpent.htm

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/masons.htm

http://www.bilderberg.org/masons.htm

The above sites are taken from literally masses of similar sites all claiming that it is anti Christian. I have not taken the time to read these sites but simply post them to confirm the point I made that there are many people that would be against a masonic type ritual. I'm surprised Mark that you appear to be unaware of this view.

Here is a quick cut and paste from one of the sites.

The Mason, however, may be unaware of much of what is taught by the Lodge. The Mason who is uninitiated in the higher degrees is deliberately deceived by his brethren. Pike says that "truth is not for those who are unworthy." He goes on to say that "Masonry jealously conceals its secrets, and intentionally leads conceited interpreters astray."(12)

Hall put it this way: "Spiritual qualities are necessary before the real Masonic secrets can be understood by the brethren themselves."(13) What Hall seems to be saying is that one must reach a certain spiritual level before he can rightly understand the deep symbolic teachings of Freemasonry. As an example, one of the most known symbols for Masonry is the letter "G." Depending on whose interpretation one chooses, this symbol may represent geometry, God, or gnosis. A Christian would obviously interpret the symbol as God, whereas the pagan would see it as knowledge or gnosis.

Albert Pike was even more direct when he stated, "The Blue Degrees are but the outer court of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry."(14)

The Mason may unwittingly be a part of the Lodge thinking that it is an extension of his Christian faith, when in fact it may be a "Trojan horse," allowing another god into his soul.

The Masonic God
The god of Freemasonry and the God of the Bible are not one and the same. There is a great difference between the two concepts of God. The Masonic god, "The Great Architect of the Universe" (G.A.O.T.U), is believed to be above all other gods.

According to Albert Pike, all people, regardless of their spiritual orientation, can unite under the "Grand Artificer of the Universe." The Masonic god is all-inclusive and all-embracing. All potential Masons must acknowledge a "God" in order to gain membership in the Lodge, but there is no definite criteria regarding which "God" is implied or what "God" is acceptable.

Pike states that Masonry is the unifier of all religions and that "the Christian, the Hebrew, the Moslem, the Brahmin, the followers of Confucius and Zoroaster, can assemble as brethren and unite in prayer to the one God who is above all the Baalim."(15) In other words, the biblical God is reduced to the level of all the other gods and at the same time rendered as equal with the false gods of those religions. Therefore, Christianity is stripped of its uniqueness as the one true religion that offers humanity its only hope for salvation.

This universal god of Freemasonry is believed by many within the Lodge to be the God of the Bible, but this god is not the triune God of the Christian faith. Freemasonry purposefully diminishes the co-equal and co-eternal status of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. That is, the second and third Persons of the Trinity are placed below God the Father, disallowing the triune nature of the biblical God.

Again I make the point the issue for the purposes of this thread is not whether these beliefs are correct or not but how such beliefs which are held may affect the views of some people to a masonic type ritual. Clearly people that believe the kind of stuff on the above sites would not take part in such a ritual and that was my point.

by **Mark Chandaue** » Jul 3rd, '04, 01:42

Hahe well if nothing else thouse sites gave me a good laugh, all written by non masons and so full of rubbish as to be almost comical. Hehe now go and get a copy of the actual masonic ritual and learn the truth not the rubbish spouted by those web sites. However the fact that you don't accept even recognised Christian churches like the Roman Cathlic Church or the Anglican church as Christians then I don't see any point in discussing this further. You are not speaking for Christians in general nor people that read and follow the bible, you are merely talking from a particular Church (or dare I say it sect) that believes it's interpretation of the bible is the only correct one and all others including the rest of the Christian faith are wrong.

Incidentally membership of the magic circle (and possibly many other magic clubs) is incompatible with your particular brand of Christianity based on those web sites. From what I could see fundamentalist Christians would not even be willing to join a magic club unless all members followed the same fundamentalist views, and as poor old GeoC is a Roman Catholic and thus a blasphemer the initiation ceremony is somewhat academic.

Mark

by **Mark Chandaue** » Jul 3rd, '04, 01:52

Couldn't resist this though

The Mason, however, may be unaware of much of what is taught by the Lodge. The Mason who is uninitiated in the higher degrees is deliberately deceived by his brethren. Pike says that "truth is not for those who are unworthy." He goes on to say that "Masonry jealously conceals its secrets, and intentionally leads conceited interpreters astray."(12)

Which is why anyone can go into Toye Kenning and Spencer in London and buy a complete copy of the masonic ritual, hehe so jealously guarded that it is on sale to the public for about 4.99 per book.

The rest was also complete and utter claptrap not even worth dealing with, no more accurate than saying all masons are 20 foot tall and live to be 200. Your skewed opinion of masonry has zip to do with masonry (particularly English masonry) but is based on the complete and utter claptrap you have read on the web.

I shall leave you to your misconceptions though as this forum is not really the place to hold this discussion, if you wish to continue it privately by all means pm me but I suspect everyone else isn't interested in this subject and would rather get back to talking magic.

Mark

by **Happy Toad** » Jul 3rd, '04, 02:15

I got my information primarily from ex masons and it's easily checked that statements such as below were actually stated.

Albert Pike was even more direct when he stated,
"The Blue Degrees are but the outer court of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry."

However as I keep saying the issue for the purposes of this thread the issue is whether people are likely to have objections to initiation ceremonies.

by **Mark Chandaue** » Jul 3rd, '04, 02:53

Happy Toad wrote:I got my information primarily from ex masons and it's easily checked that statements such as below were actually stated.

Albert Pike was even more direct when he stated,
"The Blue Degrees are but the outer court of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry."

Far from being an ex mason, he was both a mason and a christian and remained so, he was also a philosopher and your quote is from his philosiphical writings rather than a direct quote about the inner workings of masonry. It is far more interesting if you get a copy of Albert Pikes Morals and Dogma and read the whole thing in context rather than just a single quote taken out of context. Anyway, let's keep this at a PM level from here on.

Mark

by **Happy Toad** » Jul 3rd, '04, 10:10

Right I have just PMed you again.

However just to correct your comments above, I know full well who Albert Pike is, which is why I was quoting him. Interesting quote don't you think. Perhaps in context he meant there were no secrets.

Anyhow as we have both said it's time for PMs.

Regards

HT

by **MagicIain** » Jul 3rd, '04, 10:55

I'm no mod or anything, which means I can say this without too many repercussions. For @*$!'s sake, shut up the pair of you. If one says lets stop talking about it, then,

STOP TALKING ABOUT IT! :evil:

Sorry GeoC, :oops:

This doesn't normally happen with our threads, as you probably know from looking around the boards. Someone with your experience is always very welcome here, and your points would normally be considered properly and replied to intelligently (is that a word?!).

Hope this doesn't put you off posting any more my friend.

by **nickj** » Jul 3rd, '04, 12:11

For the sanity of all involved this thread has been split. If you feel compelled to continue here then please do but the thread will shortly be moved into The Hall of Pointless Altercation to rest for eternity.

by **Happy Toad** » Jul 3rd, '04, 14:48

Zack perhaps you ought to read my last post again. In fact you might like to read my first posts as well, as I tried my best not to talk about it.

by **Mark Chandaue** » Jul 3rd, '04, 15:00

nickj wrote:For the sanity of all involved this thread has been split. If you feel compelled to continue here then please do but the thread will shortly be moved into The Hall of Pointless Altercation to rest for eternity.

Hehe nah it's already been taken to pm to spare everyone else the dizziness of constantly going round in circles

Probably best to lock this split and let it drift swiftly into oblivion. Hehe the Hall of pointless altercation is a great term though, I'll have to introduce that on my own forums although I suspect it would become the most popular hangout there

Mark

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