talkmagic.co.uk

http://belzianmagic.blogspot.com/

Awhile back I started this blog on the business side of magic. I have a couple of articles now, and I would like to share it with all of you. There is a lot of information there, and there is a lot more to come. I update about once a week. So tell me what you think and I hope it helps.

Cool. Seems very informational.

It's the information age. It's bizarre and scary, all at the same time. To be able to spend 15 minutes of your time and using links that are supplied, you can know somebody fairly well in a short period of time.

You strike me as a good kid. I'm allowed to call you a kid, I'm middle aged (or, as most 19 year olds call me, an old man).

You've just gotten over a very bad condition, hospitalized in fact, and you're putting on two days worth of 15 hour presentations (each) covering a hodgepodge of venues...Amazing.

By the way, I fully expect an invitation to your wedding next year ('09).

Yes, the internet is bizarre.

Regarding your blog, it is a testament to your better nature that you are giving the information that you are giving, for free, for anyone to use who may be in the entertainment industry (as well as several others). I do see that you are considering publishing several books that expand on your advice...Well, can I suggest that you don't?

Can I further suggest that you lose the line, "Dustin White has decided to give back to the magic community?"

Where my thinking comes from is that by suggesting that you are giving a "teaser" with the hopes of publishing several books with your insights, you are not giving back. You are, in fact, advertising.

In the spirit of honesty, please take the above with a grain of salt. Fact of the matter is that the information that you have already supplied, free of charge, is pure gold. And you are out there, pushing and working and doing it - good on you.

I would just like to see you continue to give your thoughts away for free and see what it brings you 20 years from now, rather than push yourself to being thinner that you already are and offer an inferior product to the magic community (which will only serve to undermine your hard work in establishing your name so early on).

What I'm saying is: You've got a lot of irons in the fire. Too many irons can put a fire out.

Best wishes to you now and in the future (and I'll be waiting for that invitation to arrive in my mail box).

Mike.

Amazing wealth of information.. thank you Dustin!

Thank you for the kind words. This information has been better welcomed here than a couple of other forums.

Michael Jay- I will take your advice. As for the books I was talking about, I've actually started on them. I started writing a lot of this down when I was in the hospital (since I had a lot of free time). But I don't plan on having the published for many years. So I will take your advice, and loose the things that you told me to. I see where you're coming from, and I don't want to come off as a commercial. I'll probably end up just posting everything I've written in my blog anyway.

Thanks again.

Mr. White wrote:This information has been better welcomed here than a couple of other forums.

Pearls before swine, my friend - pay them no attention.

Please understand that I'm not trying to discourage you from writing a book. Really, I'm trying to discourage you from writing a book now. Give it a few years, fully establish yourself and then give it serious consideration.

Reading your essays, I see where you point out some references (Bauer, Finney and Andrews). In other words, this information is already available and therefore doesn't need yet another take on it in a book or DVD format. With time comes experience and if you're going to write something for the magic community (that you will be charging for) then you must give them something that is not only different from what is already available but something that is written with a wealth of experience to back it up.

If I remember correctly, you are in college. Have you given consideration to taking a few writing courses? I would recommend that you do (particularly if you are going to give real consideration to being published one day). Certainly, it couldn't hurt.

Failing that, there are two books that are recommended by most every professional writer for the aspiring writer:

The Elements of Style (Strunk & White)
On Writing Well (Zinsser)

Pick those two books up - they're not terribly expensive. Consider this: Just because someone can do a french drop doesn't mean that they can go out and be a professional magician and just because someone can write a complete sentence doesn't mean that they can go out and be a professional writer. Even Tommy Wonder didn't try to write his own books - he enlisted Stephen Minch, a prolific magic author, to help him with his books.

So, if you are giving honest consideration to write a book in the future (and I think you would do well to give it honest consideration), then you should start taking the steps now that will lead you in that direction. You are definitely a "go getter," so give my suggestions their due consideration.

Dustin, just keep going the way that you are going. I think that, in time, you are going to have a lot to say. And, thank you for putting your essays on the internet so that younger (or beginning) magicians can learn and use the material that you've posted.

Mike.

Michael Jay wrote:Failing that, there are two books that are recommended by most every professional writer for the aspiring writer:

The Elements of Style (Strunk & White)

I don't know where you get the "most every professional writer" claim, but I do know that the book is hated passionately by some of the world's most distinguished experts in the English language (especially Geoff Pullum, co-author of The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language). The impression I get is that half the book consists of false and at best antiquated claims about English grammar, and the other half of advice that has nothing to do with how good writers write, advice that not even White himself follows and that his writing would be much the worse if he did. This page, with its links, serves as a useful index.

But while the excerpts I've seen make it sound like a very questionable book indeed, I admit that I've never actually read it.

Adrian Morgan wrote:

Michael Jay wrote:Failing that, there are two books that are recommended by most every professional writer for the aspiring writer:

The Elements of Style (Strunk & White)

I don't know where you get the "most every professional writer" claim, but I do know that the book is hated passionately by some of the world's most distinguished experts in the English language (especially Geoff Pullum, co-author of The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language). The impression I get is that half the book consists of false and at best antiquated claims about English grammar, and the other half of advice that has nothing to do with how good writers write, advice that not even White himself follows and that his writing would be much the worse if he did. This page, with its links, serves as a useful index.

But while the excerpts I've seen make it sound like a very questionable book indeed, I admit that I've never actually read it.

Click here. Pay particular attention to, "Updated editions of the paperback book are often required reading for American high school and college composition classes."

There will always be opinion both pro and con on any given thing in any given profession, but I believe that if you take the time to google this book, you'll find very, very, very little in the con column and lots and lots and lots in the pro column.

In fact, up until now, I hadn't even heard of any dissenting opinions on this classic and highly respected work.

Mike.

Just for the record, here is a quote from Stephen King (you may have heard of him) from his book, "On Writing:"

"I'll tell you right now that every aspiring writer should read The Elements of Style." That can be found on page 11.

Mike.

Edited in:

Further, World Magazine rates this book being in the top 100 most influential books of the century (full review here).

Seriously, do some research - I'm not making this up.

More edited in:

From Bartleby:

Asserting that one must first know the rules to break them, this classic reference book is a must-have for any student and conscientious writer. Intended for use in which the practice of composition is combined with the study of literature, it gives in brief space the principal requirements of plain English style and concentrates attention on the rules of usage and principles of composition most commonly violated.

You can take a look at the uncopyrighted book (before White) here:

http://www.bartleby.com/141/index.html

Have a look at the contents and read some of it. Then, decide for yourself if you feel that this book, "...consists of false and at best antiquated claims about English grammar, and the other half of advice that has nothing to do with how good writers write..."

Let's see:

ELEMENTARY PRINCIPLES OF COMPOSITION
Make the paragraph the unit of composition: one paragraph to each topic
As a rule, begin each paragraph with a topic sentence; end it in conformity with the beginning
Use the active voice
Put statements in positive form
Omit needless words
Avoid a succession of loose sentences
Express co-ordinate ideas in similar form
Keep related words together
In summaries, keep to one tense
Place the emphatic words of a sentence at the end

Does any of that sound wrong? If you write for a living, you'll recognize immediately the value of that truncated index. And, you can click on the link and read it, if you're still apprehensive.

I am a huge Stephen King fan. Even though he has not written anything great in a while. Although I'm told his last book is showing some of his past flair. What I love is his Forwords. I really enjoyed his book on writing.

What I enjoy about King is his lack of rules. I can't remember which book it was but he was upset about what some of the critics had to say about his writing style. That it was sloppy, too wordy, run on sentances etc. Then Mr. King looked around looked in his bank account, looked at his body of work and then took a good look at the critics and he just smiled away.

It is why I enjoy magic there really is not many rules. Sure never expose a secret...wait! look at Penn And Teller hmmmm. Never mix mentalism and magic...wait don't most magicians incorperate some form of mentalism into the act. I remember once a magician telling me I did my card fan wrong when I asked a spectator to choose a card. I didn't even fan the cards I spread them from hand to hand. Upon explaining this to the moron he said that, that in itself justifies his point. I was left speechless.

Sorry I don't remember what my point was. I'm getting old.

Michael Jay- I'm actually going to be majoring in English next fall. I'll also be sure to look into those books. Thanks again.

Michael Jay wrote:Have a look at the contents and read some of it. Then, decide for yourself if you feel that this book, "...consists of false and at best antiquated claims about English grammar, and the other half of advice that has nothing to do with how good writers write..."

An example of "false and at best antiquated claims about English grammar" would be the claim that "persons", not "people", is the only correct plural of "person". Another example would be the myth that singular "they" (as in "If you meet someone with a tall black hat and a pet rabbit, they may well be a magician") is not good English grammar.

An example of "advice that has nothing to do with how good writers write" would be the advice to use "that" and not "which" in a sentence like, "the advice (that/which) we find in the book is subject to debate". All else being equal, both words are equally valid and equally good style. Examples can be found of White himself breaking this "rule" and many more examples can be found in the best English literature.

Pullum's PDF paper "Ideology, Power and Linguistic Theory" is an interesting read with a few more examples. See for example the "hopefully" advice on page eight.

You provide the following quotation:

Use the active voice
Put statements in positive form
Omit needless words

See, a better style guide would say:

Learn when to use the active voice and when not to.
Learn when to put statements in positive form and when not to.
Learn when to omit needless words and when not to.

Otherwise you're not training writers; you're training iWriters. The problem with advice like that is that if you're a good enough writer to know how to apply it intelligently then you're a good enough writer not to need it.

Now you're just nit-picking and splitting hairs!

Look, as someone who wrote for a union journal for years, has had various articles and editorials published, is a regular writer for Visions and has had many miscellanious pieces published, I can say that it is a good book for a beginning writer to study.

You point out your arguments against the book above, but (as I pointed out in my post previously) that isn't with White - that's the first edition that you are viewing. The book, now in its fourth edition, has been revised to meet with modern standards. The overwhelming critical view of the book is that it is a good book and an important work and that is the bottom line.

Let's face it, a book that is still in print after nearly 50 years must have something worth while between its covers, don't you think? And, regarding your idea of what a "better style guide" would say, well the book is 95 pages long...What do you want in 95 pages? It is short, succinct and to the point - a superlative guide to have at hand when writing.

Seriously, you point out that it should teach, "when to omit needless words and when not to." You're serious? Honestly? Omit needless words. Full stop. If they are needless, then you don't need them - is there ever a time NOT to omit pleonasm?

Ah, well, I give up. There's just no sense in this.

Mike.

And I think we'll leave things at that point and just enjoy the link.......cheers Dustin