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EckoZero wrote:I think that the "the pass is essential!" is a bit of an elitist cardie thing (no disrespect Queen of Clubs)

No offence taken. It's a pleasure to have a debate with you

You must have missed it, but I am an elitist cardie, hehe!! Hopefully in the best sense of the phrase...

EckoZero wrote:and in response to the walking away because you cant do it thing, there are numerous ways around it. The "one handed pass" works well here and also a nuance I picked up from Jay Sankey means I can show the card fairly in the middle and then with no moves, have it instantly come back to the top. All with not a pass in sight.

Well, there are and there aren't numerous ways around it. I'm not familiar with Sankey's one handed pass so I can't comment specifically, but if it's anything like Brad Christian's then it is absolutely no substitute for a pass, because it is nothing more than psychology to make an incredibly simple move appear impossibly difficult.

Let me try to explain why I consider the pass essential. If you watch that second YouTube video, you see the face-up joker placed, right infront of your burning eyes, into the middle of the deck, and then it is instantly back ontop. Now that is pure magic. I'm sure you can use many other face-down techniques to convince someone that their selection is genuinely in the middle, but for pure visual perplexion, how can you possibly better that? Not only was it in the middle and then instantly on the top, they saw it appear in the blink of an eye with no visible move whatsoever. Again - pure magic.

EckoZero wrote:And for the record, if the only way you can slip a pass un-noticed into a card routine is to have it nigh on invisible, in my opinion I think a study and mastery of misdirection may be the prescription.

I agree with that observation - but I hope you weren't directing it at me, because you'd be jumping to the wrong conclusion. I am perfectly capable of and familiar with misdirection - I'm not saying that misdirection should be put aside in favour of perfecting an invisible move, I'm simply saying that, misdirection aside, the skill of being able to pass invisibly is massively useful and deserves more credit than it gets. Like I said before, if someone really wants to see their card go into the middle, then your misdirection is going to have to be on the level of "is that your car being stolen?" to get their eyes off the deck.

queen of clubs wrote:

EckoZero wrote:I think that the "the pass is essential!" is a bit of an elitist cardie thing (no disrespect Queen of Clubs)

No offence taken. It's a pleasure to have a debate with you

Always a pleasure to cause a stir!

Well, there are and there aren't numerous ways around it. I'm not familiar with Sankey's one handed pass so I can't comment specifically, but if it's anything like Brad Christian's then it is absolutely no substitute for a pass, because it is nothing more than psychology to make an incredibly simple move appear impossibly difficult.

That pretty much sums up what card magic is actually. Psychology making something simple seem apparently impossible.

Let me try to explain why I consider the pass essential. If you watch that second YouTube video, you see the face-up joker placed, right infront of your burning eyes, into the middle of the deck, and then it is instantly back ontop. Now that is pure magic. I'm sure you can use many other face-down techniques to convince someone that their selection is genuinely in the middle, but for pure visual perplexion, how can you possibly better that? Not only was it in the middle and then instantly on the top, they saw it appear in the blink of an eye with no visible move whatsoever. Again - pure magic.

Ah this would be the elitism again?
To be honest, my pass is worse now than it used to be (thank a LONG break in magic for that ) and I've succesfully done a pass with a card face up before - and I don't feel that any spectator finds it any more magical than something like A Design For Laughter. Yes the pass is useful for face up appearances, but I find stronger tricks make more of an impression than a strong single phase.

EckoZero wrote:And for the record, if the only way you can slip a pass un-noticed into a card routine is to have it nigh on invisible, in my opinion I think a study and mastery of misdirection may be the prescription.

I agree with that observation - but I hope you weren't directing it at me, because you'd be jumping to the wrong conclusion.

To be honest, it was directed at nobody and everybody. I'm sure your misdirection is almost as good as mine ( ) but many people out there would use a perfect pass in place of misdirection. And personally, I (and I'm sure many of us!) would rather have a pass that goes undetected because our misdirection is strong enough, than a pass which is completely invisible but have no idea how to misdirect the audience.
And again, that's directed at everybody and nobody

Several interesting points here. One of which is distinguishing between what you want to achieve with the pass. Most people use it to simply control the card, Queen of Clubs seems to be on about using it more like a control/colour change. There are other ways of doing that, but a flawless pass is one of the best. However, you could put it in the middle, square up but keep a break, do an average pass with misdirection and then do an ego colour change - surely almost the same effect?

Regardless of that, saying the pass is "essential" in that context is an interesting comment to make - I can't really agree or disagree with it, because you've already made the assumption that all card magicians need to be able to do that particular trick!

I think the other issue has already been brought up - cardie or not! Or rather, who's your audience, and what do you want to achieve with them. If it's important to you for pride's sake that another magician can burn your pass from 30cm and only see a flicker, fair game, we all have our pet perfectionist projects. But that level of pass needn't be achieved for performing to laypeople, and being put off encorporating a pass into a routine because yours isn't as good as the guys in that video is a shame. Although I suppose it's a bit like the reality thumb-tip conundrum - there's a strong argument to say that a very good pass will give you the confidence to relax and therefore to actually not need a particularly strong pass, whereas a weak pass may make you nervous enough to lose your flow and end up with people burning your pass... which will be spotted, because it's weak... catch 22!

Being able to do a sleight very well will open up new uses, this goes for the pass or anything else. I personally feel confident enough with the one handed top palm to use it as a card vanish/colour change, but do you need to do it to that standard to use it at all? Nope.

As for me, I like sneaky passes. Ones that don't need to be done at high speed or particularly accurately, but are strongly misdirected in themselves, i.e. no "look over there" stuff (what you might call "generic misdirection"), but the move it's woven into is suitably deceptive. Not a perfect example, but check out my Signed Card Transpo vid. This one, as with the Dribble Pass, accomplishes the pass in the very action of supposedly making it fair to see the card is going into the middle of the deck. I also like the spread pass because you can outjog a card and appear to push it into the middle of the deck when you've already done the pass.

But I'm not above holding a break, waiting until everyone's eyes have met mine and then doing a good old classic

Lets get back to the topic shall we? What are some in-depth sources that teach you this kind of thing?

daemonturk wrote:Lets get back to the topic shall we? What are some in-depth sources that teach you this kind of thing?

Two have already been mentioned - On the Pass by Kaufman and Pass with Care by Peter Cassford. There's also an old Ken Krenzel VHS just called The Pass, it's reviewed on here somewhere - don't know if it's on DVD yet. Then there is a CD put out by Steve Youell called "Hacking the Pass", supposed to be very good but I haven't seen it. There's a Luke Jermay instant download too that teaches the Dribble Pass which for all of it's Penguin Magic-ness is a good move, taught pretty well.

Some great points made there in these posts.

To answer your question daemonturk I've heard the Richard Kaufman - On the Pass DVD is probably the most extensive source for this sleight you will get.

As for the whole topic of the pass being necessary I would have to side with the likes of Farlsborough, Ecko Zero and Lawrence. Personally as a hobbyist I'd prefer to use my time to practise other things which I feel I will get more use out of. For example I find that Vernon's Add on move is far less technical yet the results are still great at achieving a similar effect to the pass.

Although I can see where Queen of Clubs is coming from having spent 3 months perfecting Ed Marlo's strike DL and turnover. That was my everest that one.

i learned the pass throught the kaufmann dvd and done a review of it so i can heartily recomend it..............beautifull pass's though (hope rangers do the same tonight...sorry thats terrible)

personaly i never attempt the pass without misdirection like

"now you will remember your card"

or

"you didnt pick a joker did you"

having said that if my pass was as good as that second guys i think id be pretty gung ho about it. I have to say also to agree with he queen of clubs that say a D***** U**** C** will never work in as miraculous a way as le pass

Farlsborough wrote:Most people use it to simply control the card, Queen of Clubs seems to be on about using it more like a control/colour change.

Farls, you hit the nail on the head there That's exactly what I'm talking about. I respect all card-controlling methods and I'd never arrogantly insist the pass is the best for that purpose, but you're right - I'm talking about it from the point of view of it being an effect in and of itself, almost like a colour change. I love it and I'm close to perfecting it, but others don't love it and that's fine, hehe.

Back to the original topic, I notice people are recommending Richard Kaufman's "On The Pass" DVD. I own this, and personally I think it's a poor tutorial video. But that's just me. I don't know what else to recommend because my pass was pretty much picked up from the Brad Christian "Ninja" series (in which it is taught appallingly) and then self-perfected through months of trying slightly different handlings.

having got out on the pass after reading this it has reminded me that there is quite a good trick where packet of face up cards (including the selection) is placed in the middle of the deck and then fanned through and only the thought of card is face up (well thats the effect any way)......richard kaufmann is undoubtedly a bit of an ego maniac but it is a good resource....brad christianson should be hammered with tax

did i say tax......i meant nails lol (sorry not a fan of eeeelusionist)

I got the Ninja thing too to learn the pass (after all, it was advertised thus) and then he opens by saying "I'm expecting you to already know the pass" and went into a very poor explanation.

Not impressed
Although actually I learnt my other passes (notably my "invisible turnover pass" which to me is my most invisible way of passing - and has inherent built in misdirection) from Expert Card Technique.

spudgun wrote:brad christianson should be hammered with tax

Don't you mean Brad Christian?

For interest, yesterday I contacted the guy who posted the second video on youtube to get his take on learning the pass (thought it was worth a shot). He learned his pass from Jay Sankey's Sankytized videos with 'some of his own tweaking'. He stressed the need for a light grip and of using the pass on the off-beat and with misdirection.