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Hi folks, I've only been working cards for a few weeks, my double and triple lift is coming along nicely, and my palming is awul but I'm working on it.

What other sleights would you recommend starting with, ie. what's most important?

I have Hugard and Braue's Expert Card Technique but following advice here about it being a bit advanced I've ordered myself a copy of Royal Road... just hoping you could give me a wee heads start whilst I wait for Royal Mail to lose my book.

I'm sure many will agree with me that one of the most important sleights to improve any card routine is The Pass. Another good one, which is like the pass is The Ego Slip, Daniel Garcia uses this one alot. There are alot to mention. Its is best to learn as many as you can and see what suits you best.

Good Luck

Big D

I know I'm probabaly going to upset a few people by saying this after the recent conversations, but I don't really rate the pass as all that important. I learnt it and can pull off an ok pass but never really use it any more.

For me the most important things to learn would be a good force, the cross cut or slip cut forces are both very simple and very effective.

A few card controls are also quite important.

My advice would be to work through either Mark Wilson or Royal Road, both those cover just about everything I ever use.

I have to say that classic force is one of the fairest ( ) ways to let a spectator select a card. Add that to your arsenal, and people will freak. The best way to learn it, is to use it when you don't need it - I'm sure others will agree.

The pass IS important. Classic (once again) is the best IMO. Learn it...Learn it now

but why is it so important? 90% of what the pass can do, can be done by much simpler methods. It's certainly not something that I think should be learnt early. Get the basics down and then maybe you might want to learn it latter on.

Get the basics down first; at your stage, I think the pass and the classic force are too advanced. I could be wrong, but I don't think they feature very early on in the books already mentioned. Personally, I don't use the pass a great deal and don't really miss it. But that's just me; that's not to say it's not a useful sleight to know a bit further down the road, once you've learnt to walk As far as forces is concerned, the riffle force is a favourite of mine.

Lady of Mystery wrote:but why is it so important? 90% of what the pass can do, can be done by much simpler methods.

I would agree with that. Almost any move can be achieved by a variety of methods and sleights. Indeed, part of the fun of learning and enjoying magic is to come up with alternative methods to achieve the end result; sometimes this will be because you don't yet have the skill to accomplish the sleight in question, or simply because you just prefer to use another method you are more comfortable with. In the case of the pass, which is by no means an easy sleight to master, there are alternatives that you may want to play around with and see what you are most comfortable with. A good pass is a joy to watch and borders on the miraculous, which is kind of a contradiction in terms because you will never spot a good pass - you just won't see it coming! But it's not the be all and end all - other methods are out there and are worthy of consideration, especially if they make things a little easier for you in the early days.

Always remember that the end result of all these sleights and moves is what the spectator perceives - the effect. As long as your performance has been a good and convincing one (not to mention entertaining!), to the audience it matters not a jot what moves you employed to get you there.

I should add that I am not a working magician, so no doubt some of the guys on here will disagree in part or in whole with my advice. That is just my take on it and I hope it gets you thinking if nothing else.

What I mean is that looking at the classic force and pass would not hurt. They take a VERY long time to master completely, and so (i guess) what I am saying is start learning them as soon as you can.

It is very true what you say though, the only thing that matters is the effect it has on the spectators.

To original poster: It is good that you are practising the basic moves. These are the foundations on which the presentations are built. If you master your craft, you can put the real effort into creating a presentation which will make the spectator experience magic on a totally different level.

BTW Good Luck

The most important card sleight is "The Glide" because without it you can't perform "Design For Laughter"

Lookin back I should have worded my post better. I didn't mean to imply that the pass is the "most important" as I did. I do agree that it is an advanced sleight and takes alot of practice and my not be the best for beginners. I just think that if you plan on doing a lot with cards it is worth learning, even if you end up choosing not to use it. I tend to use it alot myself, but I agree there are a lot of other card control techniques that may be easier to master.

As the others have stated, as a beginner its a good idea to get the basics down first and learn some various forces and then move on to more of the card control.

What might help when you start learning card control is to place the selected card face up in the deck while practicing

Big D

EckoZero wrote:The most important card sleight is "The Glide" because without it you can't perform "Design For Laughter"

Agreed! The glide is a divine move, and relatively simple to perform. I'd also suggest learning some kind of false shuffle, as that can be used to perplex people wonderfully.

I won't comment on the pass in this thread, haha! I'm sure my elitist views are very well known

hey as the lomster said the pass and the classic force are a bit advanced but they are usefull......as for general moves i would perefect a couple of shuffles and controls. Your rrcm will start you with overhand shuffle and I* J**ing cards (which is ideal). Before my pass was good i used that stuff all the time. As for the glide.....its a gem and easy peasy (i to still do design for laughter a lot, cause its a wee classic) Plus if someone wants to see something quick a card changing from what they think it is to a chosen selection, in their hands, is pretty astonishing to lay people with the right performance.

Lady of Mystery wrote:but why is it so important? 90% of what the pass can do, can be done by much simpler methods. It's certainly not something that I think should be learnt early. Get the basics down and then maybe you might want to learn it latter on.

I do agree here with you Lommie that it isn't something that should be learnt early on, as the frustration involved can be almost enough to make someone quit card magic. On the other hand, it is true that what the pass does (ie. brings a selected card from the middle to the top or vice versa) can be done in easier ways. However, are there any other alternatives that are as effective as the pass? After the all when done correctly, the pass brings the card to the top when merely squaring the deck up. The deck can then be put down, safe in the knowledge that the card has been controlled to the top. Easier methods such as the side slip or just an injog, outjog or side jog are perfectly usable, but the deck needs to be held for that bit longer, and you generally need to do something extra, like shuffle off or cut or something. As far as the side slip is concerned, I personally use it sparingly as I find it takes to long and you need some sort of cover ie. turning to speak to an audience member as "the dirt is done" so to speak. These alternatives I find just don't have the same impact as when you use the pass. After all I think that "Card goes into centre, square up, card on top" is more effective than "card into middle, deck held in hands, shuffle off/cut/double cut, now card is back on top. On the other hand, if you're just using it for a control, then the above (ie. the amount of time the deck is in your hands or wether you shuffle/cut or whatever) is probably irrelevant.
I suppose that I am a bit of a "pass snob" so to speak (you're not alone Queen of clubs!:wink:), and if I couldn't do the pass then I wouldn't take this point of view... each to their own really...

Incidentally, I think Darwin Ortiz discusses the pros and cons of the effectiveness of moves such as the pass in strong magic which is worth a read

WOW! Thanks for the excellent replies. Guess I'd sold myself a bit short; my classic force has been doing okay (maybe 1 in 2 success rate) and I'm false shuffling, although it is avery crude top to bottom etc shuffle with no jogging involved.

Think I'll get into the Glide and Jog shuffling next, thanks guys.

It's important to know card control and I think the pass is a good move even if mine is bad...