talkmagic.co.uk

I was thinking about the old "you're paying for the secret" phrase that pops up a lot in the magic scene. Imagine, if you will, that I went out and purchased, say, a packet trick; would it be reasonable of me to expect a discount if I then went back the next day and purchased the same item? Seeing as I've already paid for the secret, should I get the props (in this example, a few gaffed cards) for a discount?

I should add this is a hypothetical situation - I'm just interested in opinions on this, that's all.

Hypothetically, I agree that you should.

I think that the Color Fusion DVD solved this one by selling the secret on DVD, including the detail of how to make the gimick, but also selling the gimicks already made up if that was what you wanted.

Seems to be the best of both worlds with this one but I suspect that this is a minority example.

On the other hand, if the price for the package is relatively low, it could be argued that the secret is being given away for nothing, but within the price of the overall package that is based on the cost of the gimmick, if you see what I mean.

Life is never simple.

'You are paying for the secret' unfortunatly is just a bad phrase. When you purchase a book, any book. You then read the book. And you think wow this is wonderful. Can you go into the book store and explain that you already read the book, you know the story, therefore you should get it cheaper because you are paying for the story? I could go on with other examples but I like horses, and I don't wish to beat one to death especially after the Kentucky Derby.

We are clearly not just paying for the secret. I'm betting this unfortunate phrase came about because some body didn't like the way an effect worked it wasn't real magic and didn't turn him into a magician over night and the magic shop owner not knowing what else to say said the first thing that came into his head...and from there others followed suit because we are all a bunch of sheep!

Some good points. I guess there is nothing set in stone for this kind of thing; too many variables. My own opinion is that the phrase is used as an excuse for selling c*** (not the best).

surely you're just talking about buying refills rather than anything else?

or do you mean if you buy a plastic TT, you should then get a discount off any further ones you buy?

it costs what it costs i reckon - magic is too cheap nowadays in my opinion...

imagine if a book cost you eighty quid instead of eight off new and used on amazon as an example - you'll want to learn every word and sleight in that book to get value out of it...

i may start a campaign - make magic more expensive!

And I do respect that opinion. And I believe that there are cases where you are absolutly correct. I also happen to believe that it is a really bad way for a retailer to protect themselves from the 'magician' that comes into the shop buys the cup and balls that was 'demonstrated' to them. Get the thing home learns the secret and realizes its not magic at all plays with it for 10 minutes decides its stupid and wouldn't fool anyone, (although it fooled the heck out of them) and then walks into the magic shop the next day wants his 5 dollars back because the effect was 'stupid' yet, then looks to buy something else!

It is very unfortunate that the magic dealers decide to resolve the issue by saying, "I'm sorry but when you purchase an effect you are buying the secret and you simply cannot return that'

I used to hate the inner/outer boxes. It was a 5 dollar tenyo item and it sucked dog water. Here you have two boxes that are exactly the same size, and as we all know two objects of the same dimension can't occupy the same space yet amazingly these objects can even though they are exactly the same one can fit inside the other" Okay I thought stupid premise, and man the method is dumber then the premise. Then I saw Paul Daniels do the same effect only a giant version and thought hey, that isn't half bad. Then I saw Romain, the Monarch of Manipulation perform the same effect to teach me a lesson. Not only did the cheapo Tenyo boxes fit into the same space, each one contained an object each time it was open and the final time one of the boxes rose out of the other much like a a card rise.

Just pointing out that what we think is garbage may actually be very good. Yes I have gotten stuff that I didn't like and if it is badly made or defective I return it, and never have I sold anything to a magician and have not stood behind what I've sold. And if you describe to your dealer what it is you are looking for, describe your situations and needs and they sell you something that would never work in the conditions described then return it, if they don't take it back find another dealer.

But lets say, like me.. I have lost my gimmick from Holy Moly ( only the crucial one!! ) also I have lost the main gimmick in my hopping half set.

Should I pay £15 for the whole of holy Moly or £28 for a new hopping half set when I only need one coin??

If we are talking replacement gimmicks like a TT or IT or new loops.. then yes full price makes sense.. but to pay full price for a single component of an effect or gimmick set is .. Ouchy ouch ouch!!

Luckily I think Sankey sells refills on his site.. I think others should follow suit..

I like magic on the cheap or bargainous side... I just wish it was only cheap to me

Replicant is bang on, and I've made the same argument repeatedly.

Bmat says it's the same as reading a book and wanting a discount on another copy because you paid full price for the first and didn't know the story at that time.

It's not the same at all.
First, no bookseller ever said "you're paying for the story line (secret)."
Secondly, ONLY magic dealers use that specious argument to justify charging an arm and a leg for a few bits of paper, wire, and rubber bands.

If magic dealers insist on using that tired, old bromide to justify overcharging by huge percentages, then they should make sure the price IS justified.

Peter Marucci wrote:Replicant is bang on, and I've made the same argument repeatedly.

Bmat says it's the same as reading a book and wanting a discount on another copy because you paid full price for the first and didn't know the story at that time.

It's not the same at all.
First, no bookseller ever said "you're paying for the story line (secret)."
Secondly, ONLY magic dealers use that specious argument to justify charging an arm and a leg for a few bits of paper, wire, and rubber bands.

If magic dealers insist on using that tired, old bromide to justify overcharging by huge percentages, then they should make sure the price IS justified.

Actually for the most part I agree the price must be justified. And it is incredibly sad that for the most part it is not.

And yes replacement parts should be available. I once asked a gimmicked coin manufacturer for bang rings because people are always loosing them. Guess what. I was quickly sent a whole assortment of them and I gave them to customers who needed them.

Other gimmicks that may be pricey to replace I did charge for. As did the manufacturer. If you have lost a part then contact your magic dealer or the manufacturer and see what can be arranged as you should not have to buy the whole thing again to replace on part.

I remember the Timothy wenk gimmick for the Pencil through bill. He offered a guarantee that if it broke send back the parts or the majority of the parts and he will happily send you another free. The problem came up that people were breaking off just a little part off and sending that little part and expecting to get another. Its those few who gum up the works.

But to recap I absolutly believe the price must be justified. And talk to your magic dealer. Make sure that if you have a problem that it will be taken care of that is satisfactory to both. If its not, find another dealer.

And as I stated previously the excuse that 'we sell the secret' in defence of anything is extremely poor and I for one would never accept that as an excuse, nor have I ever used it on a customer.

Bmat,
Would that ALL dealers could be as moral and ethical as you are.

What the magic world needs is better dealers, not necessarily more!

And better is like bmat.

abraxus wrote:surely you're just talking about buying refills rather than anything else?

or do you mean if you buy a plastic TT, you should then get a discount off any further ones you buy?

Yeah, I guess refills is it. And of course I don't expect discounts off repeat TT purchases - I'm not as bad as that!

it costs what it costs i reckon - magic is too cheap nowadays in my opinion...

To an extent, yes, it costs what it costs. For example, I purchased Coinvexed recently and even speaking as an AH where I will never recover the cost of the item by paid performances, I still think it should have sold for more than £85-odd. Outlaw's Kioku is another effect I think is vastly underpriced.

But there is rubbish stuff out there that has simply been released to make as much money as possible out of the the unsuspecting customer, with the "you pay for the secret" tagged on in a feeble attempt to justify its existence. It is this kind of thing that harms magic, I think. I could be wrong, but I believe Davenports have a sign in the shop which states just that. That's always disappointed me, that a fine establishment like Davenports feels it needs to have that sign up.

Overall, I think you are paying for the secret. But as you've recognised, the controversy comes when you open a package expecting something special and you get a piece of string with a sign saying "what did you expect - real magic?" Because then it's a matter of expectation versus false advertisement. I'm sure we've all bought a trick that's been genuinely disappointing to the point of misleading, that kind of "I would have done it like that anyway" type affair. But then, we've probably also bought something where the secret has been simple, yet we've still been disappointed because secretly we're upset it's not real magic!

Utility items are also a sore point. It's OK for TTs, because it costs what it costs. But, say, James Brown's "Workeroo" - there's a real secret to be purchased there. Or Jay Sankey's Holy Moly, as ID says... in those instances, I think contacting the manufacturer will help. I felt my Holy Moly gimmicks weren't up to scratch (one of them had a mark which meant it was a bit "obvious"), I emailed Jay and he sent me a whole set of replacements, free of charge. With the coin effects ID mentioned, the cost isn't the secret, it's the production value of someone investing in a metal lathe and carefully making the shells etc, so again, I wouldn't expect a cheap replacement.

There is of course the worry of re-sale as well, what with eBay etc. I mean, even if David Penn was understanding and was willing to offer cost price replacements for any klutz who could prove they'd bought the original "coinvexed" but lost the gimmick, he'd be opening himself up to people buying one original, then writing off to get a replacement and selling it on to offset the cost of their original purchase.

I think it's up to us to keep communicating with each other about good or bad manufacturers or sellers - whether people are trying to rip us off using "you buy the secret" as protection, or whether they're respectable and reasonable. Ultimately, they have to keep that sign in the window, because otherwise they'd get a load of people buying something only to go "What?! It's just got a magnet in it! That's not magic! I want my money back!"

I have lost the main gimmick in my hopping half set.

I.D you cna have my set as I'm using the hopping half varient from marks colour coins.

wrote a long post about a certain shop selling a certain uk coin gimick and a dvd of the secret for an american version of the gimick, company has since changed hands so my replacement american gimick never materialised. (the dreaded submit button failure took care of that posting)

having paid for variose gimicks to use with the secret suplied and finding that parts of the secret suplied were not usable due to the wrong gimick being used, i'll have to pay for the gimick and the secret, if i can find one.
so i'll have paid once for the secret and again for the correct gimick and spare secret.

some companys iv'e come across by the secret in bulk at a reduced price per unit and then flog you there gimicks for a profit even if there not fully serviceable, so your paying for the secret and gimick but if your suplied with an own brand gimick your out of luck.

(please note the new owners of the company nolonger suply there own uk gimicks with dvd's of american related secrets).
only a magic company can sell you a fararie with a ford engine block which you can't return because you know the secret of turning the ignition key.

some magic companys are able to get better asurances from there dealers / supliers and are able to offer fairer terms to there customers, thankfully thease are getting more common thaese days.

Its funny this topic should come up, I was thinking about a similar thing last week. More to do with wear and tear of gimmicks, then what to do if no refills are available. So a gimmicked packet card trick were the prints cannot be got anywhere. I'm still not a 100% sure where I stand on it.

I'd like to think the best policy would be common sense on everyone's part.

Everyone should keep communicating on the best way to deal with things and hopefully move on and leave the little exposure kings in our wakes.

Magic Discoman writes, of hopping halves: ". . .having paid for variose gimicks to use with the secret suplied and finding that parts of the secret suplied were not usable due to the wrong gimick being used, i'll have to pay for the gimick and the secret, if i can find one. "

To save you the expense of buying the gimmicks, you can have my routine for UNGIMMICKED hopping halves for free.

You (or anyone else interested) can simply e-mail me and ask. Ye shall receive, by return.