talkmagic.co.uk

In the Daily Telegraph,Friday, 12th. September there is a short article about Richard Wiseman, 'Professor of Psychology at the University of Northumberland, a skilled illusionist and member of the Magic Circle' and his recommendations to teach magic in schools,on the National Curriculum.
This 'to boost children's confidence & self esteem'. I quote: 'Pupils should be taught 'mindreading card tricks & how to rejoin the ends of a magic rope after it has been cut in two.; it was claimed by the academic'.

He has introduced the lessons to two groups of 10 to 12 year olds as part of a study. He has said that the classes improved pupils' social skills and confidence and is now calling for them to be introduced into all schools'.
'50 pupils at two schools were given hour long Magic School sessions as well as their normal PSHE (Personal, social, health & economic education)
'They were then given psychological tests and their confidence & self esteem, measured before & after the lessons showed that Magic had a significantly greater benefit than PSHE'.

WOW. BUT doesn't Professor Wiseman realise that all this can be done, in schools, by an experienced Drama Teacher.And without spreading magic (for free) around our future(hopefully) audiences?

Drama is is the very best way of teaching children self discipline,self esteem, relationships, speech, movement, and above all, co-operation with others.

My very first Drama Class in schools was in September 1957. Those 11 year old pupils are all now 60+. They 're-discovered' me around the year 2000 and as well as attending our Sunshine Theatre productions they take my wife and I out about 3 times a year. The initial 12 I met arranged a reunion with myself and 100 others I had taught; one of whom came over from Australia; the rest from parts far away from Nottingham.
They have all developed into well balanced, friendly, self assured, self disciplined people, caring for others; which was my main message to all (and that's approx 28,000) pupils to whom I taught Drama.

The Sorcerers' Apprentice programmes on TV (admittedly competitive..which I hate) did show a number of children,rejected and the stress it caused them. As did the times when the chld could not master the trick.

I have no doubt that Richard Wiseman will say only simple tricks, already in the Public Domain will be used and certainly his intentions. are obviously well meant.
Anything these days to help establish discipline & respect, amongst the young, are to be applauded.
BUT, Magic has been degraded in recent years especially on Britain's Got Talent & in the same programme in other countries.

The amount of magic available on the Internet and elsewhere is verging on the obscene.
Should we really be spreading the secrets of our basic principles around so readily?

It's over to you. What do you think?

Allen Tipton

I also read the article and remember 'drama' lessons at school, back in the 70's and wish that I'd taken more interest in them now

The amount of magic available on the Internet and elsewhere is verging on the obscene.

I don't disagee and know that there's a lot of magic about on sites such as YouTube and PutFile. Much of it is bad and often doesn't take much figuring out but I'm not sure that the vast majority of lay people actually look for it and I suspect that some won't even realise that it's there to begin with.

Does that make it a problem? Like most things there are pro's and con's.

Unless you aspire to be a magician, most people don't give magic a second thought until they're stood in front of a magician. If they're entertained then they may remember the expereince and tell their friends, describing what they witnessed but I don't believe that they would go to the trouble of searching out clips on the internet.

Teaching magic in schools is a different matter altogether as i see it and there are a number of ways that discipline, respect and other traditional values can be instilled in students without using magic.

Here's something to think about.

The people that you see making exposure vids on youtube are generally young men with an interest in magic. They love this stuff, so much that they film themselves on terribly poor quality webcams doing hokey card tricks with little or no presentation, then put up explanation videos.

If these kids are anything like most young people into magic (let's be honest now guys), they are probably quite solitary, probably don't get out a huge amount, and like to have a hobby that they can practise on their own then use to impress their friends. I know this because I used to be that kid, and I think a lot of people who were into magic at a young age were too.

And the response of the magic community (being the only people who watch these videos, because noone else can be bothered to look them up, or even knows to search for "Dai Vernon's Triumph Explained!!!") is to attack and belittle these people? No, they're not good magicians, they quite frankly suck, but it's my opinion that if you do a trick for someone and they go "I saw a 14 year old American kid explain that on Youtube" then it's time you came up with an original presentation for that same trick. If it's good enough, no spectator will even think about the video they saw online a month ago.

Please guys, we're better than berating anyone who deems to reveal how to do a cut and restored rope to a general public who won't pay attention anyway. These people love the same thing we do, and want to share it with people. Is that wrong? Magic is prohibitively expensive in my opinion. Excluding the argument about intellectual property, surely someone who's spent hours online trawling the internet to research how a trick is done DESERVES to get the secret. Money should never stand in the way of someone who wants to perform magic. Hell, if you come to me and show me that you're really passionate about doing this stuff, I'll teach you every sleight in the Royal Road totally free of charge. We should be encouraging people to do good magic, not condemning them for trying to share it.

I had an email yesterday from BBC radio Leicester, who are running a feature on this for one of their daytime shows and were looking for a local magician to interview.

They want to gather opinions from magicians points of views as to whether its a good idea or not, so it'll be interesting to hear what you've all got to say about it on here!

I personally think that anything that brings people into magic has got to be a great idea.

It all depends on how it'd be done but I think that including magic along with other perfoming arts into a GCSE drama class would be a brilliant idea. It'd bring kids into magic who might not normally get involved and it'd teach a wider range of performing arts. I remember my drama classes, we were very much pushed down the path of classic plays with only a tiny scope for adding things like dance and music in.

For people who are paranoid about exposure, I really wouldn't worry about it. Exposure has been around for years, I found an article that was published in the Jinx about 70 years ago talking about the imminent death of magic because of exposure. That was 70 years ago and we're still here and still performing now and I'm pretty sure that we still will in another 70 years. well not us obviously but perhaps some of the biggest names will be kids who've learnt magic in their drama classes at school.

The biggest problem with magic is that there isn't anywhere that you can go to learn it. If you want to learn dance, you can pop down the local dance club, want to paly an instrument it's not all that difficult to find a teacher. But what do you do if you want to learn magic? Ok there are magic clubs but they're mostly very secretive and underground that unless you know where to look, you're never going to find them.

We all complain about the terrible magicians out there with no performance skills, well how are they ever going to learn those things if there's no one out there to teach them? Let have lessons that are accessable, lessons that these kids can go along to. It'll make them into better magicians and they'll learn to respect magic more so they wont be posting everything they learn on youtube.

Many of the kids on youtube, I think just want an audience to perform to. A magic class could put on regular shows and give these children an audience to perform to. They'll gain experience of performing in front of an audience and more importantly, they'll have real people to perform to.

Really, I think that something like this could help to solve all those problems that we're always moaning about when it comes to the youtube kids. Most of those kids just need a little help and direction, they're enthusiastic, they want to learn but they're just going the wrong way about it because they don't know any better.

Just 2 points.

Dear Lady of Mystery.(a Wonderful nom de plume) When you talk of Classic plays that is not what a Drama Teacher does in Drama Lessons. That is Theatre which Drama can if the teacher wishes, lead to.
Drama in Schools was meant to be used in an all round self development syllabus with its basis in Play.Because of its enjoyment factor the youngsters learn wihtout even realising they are learning.
Your Drama(?) Teacher must be of the very old school of thought that thinks Drama is the study of plays when that approach is really the study of Literature. Headteachers will confuse the two when they timetable lessons.

Exposure: This I have watched & studied for years.
Exposure doesn't really matter in the end. At once time magicians all blew their tops over it. Robert Harbin at one point used to display a small set of Linking Rings, expose the key ring and say something like" These cheap rings from Woolworths are not what magicians use. These are the ones magicians use" He'd then show his 8" ones as being all solid and do the routine:wink: e
Everytime magicians went into print or on the air over exposure they drew the public's attention markedly towards Mgic's secrets.
Horace Goldin even took the Camel corporation to Court over Sawing in Half; they'd 'exposed 'his' secret on their cigarette cards. he lost the case.
For 'younger viewers' these were small glossy cards inserted into cigarette packets often with sportsmen, film stars,hobbies, famous people(3 years ago someone gave me one with Dante on it)
I bought a set, as a 12 year old with all simple magic tricks on them.
One could take the view that exposure will push the magician into devising new methods, new presentations, new uses or better rehearsed versions of misdirection & his Magic in general; & new approaches

One of all magicians' main aims should be to stop the ,'I'm here to fool you' approach and concentrate on creating a sense of wonder. surprise & sheer entertainment be it with mystery or comedy.

But the Public Memory is usually very short. They might be, for a fraction of time, interested in 'How It Is Done' then they do generally, forget.

One of my students, helping in a Magic Show (& this was a very intelligent lad, later an actor) could not remember,2 years after, how he had vanished 3 large dolls in the Bengal Net. "I remember pushing a lever" he told me, "but how they vanished I cannot remember" Neither could another ex student who, every night,for 8 performances and 3 Dress Rehearsals. set the props up in my 2 hour illusion show. And he has been a director in the professional Theatre for years & has an excellent memory.

Our local 'Bin Man..Refuse Collector' had viewed the Masked Magician with his exposure of Sawing and told me, 'the box was big enough to put him, me and one of his fellows in it at the same time. He was totally convinced that it was NOT the way magicians 'did it' as he had seen the self same trick in a Blackpool show with a box that was "only that deep". Then he held his hands about 4 inches apart. I thought, " Gosh that must have been the Ultimate Thin Sawing'

Thankfully 99% of magicians ignored the temptation to shout about the Masked Magician and ever since (in spite of several repeats) the Public seem to have confined him to their own Room 101.

By all means encourage Magic & the Love of Magic but.....................
Well guys...you finish the sentence

Allen Tipton.[/u]

I can't really agree with the principle "the more that get into magic the better, isn't it a great hobby?!" - magic has a key difference from music, or many other art forms in that it thrives on mystery, secrecy and yes - to a degree - exclusivity. I've recently been PMing a member here who talked about his slightly intimidating first appearance at my local magic shop during one of their sessions, how it was daunting, and the other magicians perhaps a bit wary and not immediately ready to spill all their beans.

Fine by me! But he's going to keep practicing, and go back, and I know that if he does they will start to recognise, accept and befriend him, just like they have me.
Far from seeing the dusty glass cases and tightly closed lips of older magicians as some past skeleton of elitest magic that we should all be keen to get past, I see it as an integral part of the tradition and ongoing history of magic. Fine, the tricks, the presentations etc. can progress, but ultimately I feel that the fact that magic is regularly the domain of withdrawn and slightly strange young men (and ladies) is part of it's charm!

With all this high talk of "experiences of wonder", I think we get a bit above ourselves - that is the magic ideal which we do well to consider regularly, but the bread and butter, the ground level of magic, is secrets - it's the majority not knowing what the few magicians know, and I may be disagreeing with wiser men here but I believe it IS about "fooling people" - not in a malignant and sneering way, but still... otherwise, why would people's immediate gut reaction to so many tricks be surprised, joyous laughter whilst uttering the words, "how DID you do that?!" - as opposed to, "that was a wonderous experience - you transported me temporarily to another world - thank you."

So, whilst not wanting magic to seem an actively cruel "hobby", I have no problem with people encountering a few hurdles when they are learning - a few sharp rebuffs here and there from cranky old magi. The keen ones will suck it up, come back more eager, more practiced, and receive praise and trust as a reward.


The problem with teaching magic like drama in schools (and Mr. Tipton is absolutely right with regard to what "drama" is supposed to be about) is that whilst there are some who benefit, there are also many who don't pay attention, who mess around, who mock the whole thing and gain little.

The whole reason magic gives hope and confidence to the young people it does is because more often than not, they were the slightly lonely or shy ones lacking in confidence before hand. The dusty books (and now DVDs) give them a skill, and empower them to impress and perform confidently infront of people they might otherwise have been intimidated by. Unfortunately some therefore take it too far and make it the nasty sneering "you're dumb, I'm smart" enterprise that we all recognise as bad, but hopefully for the majority it gives them a point of entry into social interaction - not only that, put places them higher in the "people who are great at a party" ranking than they might otherwise have thought possible.

So, what happens when you teach - no, force upon - the whole class even these simple secrets? Surely it neutralises the benefit, because the jocks, the jerks, the cool crowd - whoever - are learning exactly the same secrets along side, and are never therefore going to be impressed or to accept those kids on the basis of their magic skills. Not only that, but they are learning one of the biggest secrets ever - that magic is something that can be practiced again and again and performed just like "hot cross buns" on the recorder, which robs the magic of it's magic even when they see tricks that they didn't learn in school.

I don't doubt that on the small scale, i.e. for the children who go to these classes, it will seem great, the lessons will be fun, they'll go home and perform for their parents etc. and the whole thing will seem a success. But there are so many other ways children can learn these things and gain confidence in their abilities - cooking, woodwork, staging plays and musicals where they all contribute and do their bit - and all of these things are meant to be learnt and shared by as many as possible. I personally feel that by reducing magic to a similar "hobby" or "skill" ("hey, we've got magic class next! All 30 of us...") - or rather, broadcasting the secret fact that, actually, it IS similar in some ways - unnecessarily mass produces magic, and I think in the social circles that those children will move in and grow into, magic will suffer for it.

I totally see what you're both saying but I think that if it's thought out properly, then teaching magic isn't going to do any harm at all and can only be positive.

It all depends on how it's done, I'm not talking about teaching all children, I'd see it more as part of the drama or perhaps you could have a performing arts GCSE. Not all children are going to take the subject so you're only going to have those who are interested in performing arts.

Now when I took PE, we had a certain choice about which sports we played, we could choose between hockey, netball, football etc. I see magic being taught in a similar way, so that the children could choose between maybe dance, acting or magic.

If it's done properly, you'd only get those children who have an interest in magic. And if they've already got an interest in magic than by teaching them these lessons you're going to be helping both the child and magic in general.

The child will learn how to perform and all those little details that most of use have had to learn the hard way by performing for an audience. It'll make them a better magician and performer. Magic will benifit because it'd cut down on the bad, youtube magicians, I honestly think that exposure would be reduced and the standard of magicians out there would go up.

It could raise the bar for all of us.

Farlsborough; you have summed it all up briliantly.
Although I agree with everything you said, I would have substitued perhaps another word for Fooling. And yes you have explained it but many of the fraternity will still think I'm Fooling them, when the reactions come. Really what we are doing is mystifying them; a sort of honest deceiving but without the smarmy, smug looks & above all..attitude.

For me personally, it is a matter of amazing them, mystifying them, even bewildering them but in an entertaining way.
Sounds of laughter are more rewarding than puzzling their socks off!

Above all: Do not present magic as a puzzle that they just have to solve..

A number of, usually young, magicians who ask me for advice have decks of cards, props etc snatched off them by onlookers who wished to discover The Secret. I think it's mainly because their attitude is 'I'll show you a trick' or they finish the trick and either pause too long, leaving themselves open to being asked too many of 'the wrong sort of questions'
In other words they present a few separate tricks rather than a set routine which is really an Act.

IF with your effect, you have carefully routined & thoroughly rehearsed it; hopefully tried it out in front of friends beforehand; dealt with the externals as; what happens to the prop immediately you have finished, ;scripted the routine so you can have 'thinking time' if something goes awry or you meet an awkward spectator THEN you are well on the way to avoiding the Secret Searchers.

You won't avoid all but you will be better prepared to deal with them more effectively.

The biggest problem is educating many magicians is how to NOT play the 'Smart Alec' and help them to remove their, 'I'm fooling you' approach; their trying to make, in more or lesser degrees, suckers of their audiences.

I feel that is what puts so many lay people against Magic.
The other main reason being: lack of thought & perhaps rehearsal with their routines & presentations.

Allen Tipton.

Personally I reckon we'd all be better off if schools just concentrated on teaching the three 'R's like they're supposed to and leave all this airy fairy stuff for after school activities. There again, I'm a well-known miseryguts.....

Indeed Mandrake. It was I was about to say something along those lines. I've got enough to teach the kids at school without adding another unnecessary experimental subject. Enough time has to be wasted on PSHE, general studies, key skills and the like as it is. At a few of the schools I've been in I've had to do citizenship; teaching kids basic manners. We've barely got enough time to fit in the basic core subjects of maths, English, Science without making it worse.

While I'm sure this could boost a few students confidence for the majority it would be a waste of time. Spending more time on effectively boosting their intelligence will do them more good in the long run. Besides which it isn't my job to teach them every little life skill. The parents need to have some role.

Jobasha wrote:The parents need to have some role.

I utterly and totally agree but did you hear that noise? The sound of a hornet's nest being well and truly stirred....

One counter-point that nobody has brought up yet is how magic taught in this way can actually demotivate kids instead of helping their growth. Think about how many utterly appalling YouTube videos of magic performed badly by children there are out there and how the cack-handed performance itself is a form of exposure. Well, what happens when an eager youth tries a trick on some other students and is immediately seen through and laughed at? We all know that peer groups in school are some of the nastiest and least forgiving of places to find yourself.

It could quite easily put someone off magic for life.

It would also be an annoyance in other lessons when kids are trying to show off their tricks instead of doing their set work. But then on the plus I could confiscate tricks

queen of clubs wrote:Well, what happens when an eager youth tries a trick on some other students and is immediately seen through and laughed at? We all know that peer groups in school are some of the nastiest and least forgiving of places to find yourself.

That's a good point but if the teacher teaches correctly then she'll teach that you need to perfect the trick before you go showing people. If there was the prospect of a show at the end of the course, that'll give the kids a reason not to go showing off their new tricks. I remember when I did dance, we were all very protective of our routines until we got to preform them in front of an audience.